Mr. HOUSTON. Then the availability of space down there is likely to continue indefinitely? I mean by that that you will have enough space now to take care of what you want?

Dr. BUCK. For a period of time; yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What extent of the available capacity are you using now?

Dr. Buck. At the present moment, I think approximately half of the space of the building is occupied, although part of it is occupied by records of other agencies of the Government that are not in the custody of the Archivist. We have permitted the War Department and did permit the Navy Department-I believe they are out nowand certain other departments to bring in records that they are not ready to transfer. They wanted to retain them in their custody but wanted space where they could keep them temporarily while new buildings were being built.

WORLD WAR RECORDS

Mr. HOUSTON. Has the Army ever turned over any World War records?

Dr. BUCK. Oh, yes.

Mr. HOUSTON. You have those?

Dr. BUCK. We have, I believe, the great mass of the World War records of the Army now in process of transfer.

Mr. PAGE. Except the World War service records; the records of the men in service during that period have not been transferred.

Mr. HOUSTON. But they will undertake to transfer them sooner or later?

Mr. PAGE. I cannot answer that question, since such a transfer would have to be initiated by the Secretary of War.

Mr. HOUSTON. I should think it would be very important that they would transfer them over there, if they have not any safe place to keep them.

FEES COLLECTED FROM OUTSIDE SOURCES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you realize anything from the collection of fees in any way?

Mr. HARRIS. Under authority of Congress, we can not charge any fee for furnishing photographic copies of documents to Government agencies, but to persons who are not connected with Government institutions, and individuals, we charge a fee, which is collected and deposited in miscellaneous receipts in the Treasury. I think our collections last year ran approximately $2,500 from outside sources. Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is the cost of that to the Archives? You say you collected $2,500; what did you have to spend?

Mr. HARRIS. That is what it actually cost us in material, and labor, and then a percentage for overhead is charged.

ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL REQUESTED

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I understand each one of those 70 positions you are requesting at this time, Doctor, has already been allowed for the present fiscal year under a deficiency appropriation?

Dr. BUCK. All of them have been allowed for the remainder of the present fiscal year in the supplemental appropriation; yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Are not we getting a little top-heavy in the upper grades of our personnel? For instance, I notice this request gives you 1 archivist; 2 head archivists; 2 principal archivists; 16 senior archivists; 13 plain or ordinary archivists; 36 associate archivists and 44 assistant archivists. That is a total of 114, or almost 40 percent increase in those grades as compared with what you have had heretofore. What is the explanation of such a large percentage increase in the higher salary grades?

Dr. Buck. I think, sir, that the increases in those grades are only nine people.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Well, according to this budget break-down it would appear there were 114 in this request as compared with 83 in the appropriation allowed a year ago.

Mr. HARRIS. In the appropriation for the fiscal year 1943, 32 of the positions are in the lower grades, that is 32 of the 70 positions. And there is only an increase of 9 P-3 and 1 P-2 in the higher brackets for 1943.

Mr. WOODRUM. What is the salary for a grade 3 job?

Mr. HARRIS. $3,200.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is the average salary throughout the whole Department?

Mr. HARRIS. It runs about $2,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It will run more than that, according to the Budget figures here; it will run $2,300 or $2,400, I would say. I wish you would check that up a little because, according to these figures in the grades from $2,639 up there is an increase of 40 percent in the personnel you are requesting now as compared with that allowed a year ago. That is exclusive of the deficiency appropriation.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir. The average gross salary for the fiscal year 1943, based upon the estimates now under consideration, will be

$2.189.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the future personnel outlook? Is there any end in sight as far as increases in personnel are concerned, or what do you look forward to? You have a total of 489 people in your set-up now.

Dr. Buck. Well, the personnel that will be necessary ultimately to administer the records in The National Archives Building is not anything that anybody can make more than a guess about, because there are so many factors that cannot be determined at the present time.

Before The Archives Building was constructed, a Commission was appointed by President Hoover to make recommendations to the atchitect with reference to the features of the building, and that Commission, in its report to President Hoover, estimated that the operation of the institution, not then created, to carry on the work in the building would probably require approximately 600 employees. Whether that estimate will ever be reached, I do not think anyone can say now. A great deal depends upon the bulk of records that are created in the future, upon the proportion of them that seem to be worthy of preservation, upon the extent to which the agencies of the

Government want to use those records. Unquestionably certain phases of the work of The National Archives; that is, the transfer to the building of the accumulations of 150 years and the organization and arrangement of those records so that they can be readily serviced, will come to an end in the course of time; but the Government will go right on, and it goes on creating records at an accelerated rate, and certainly some parts of those records will have to be taken care of either in The National Archives Building or elsewhere. And so the extent to which the personnel will be needed for the archival phases of the records administration of the Government will depend upon the way in which the activities and consequently the created records of the Government expand.

RECORDS ADMINISTRATION PROJECT

Dr. BUCK. May I say, with reference to the increase in the number of higher personnel contained in the supplementary appropriation act, that nine of them are for positions set up at present in the office of the Archivist to undertake a project that we believe in the long run will greatly diminish the work, not only of the National Archives in connection with the transfers and disposals of records that are now being created, but also that of the agencies of the Government themselves in connection with their records problems. That project we are calling our "records administration project." It is proposed to establish further contacts with the agencies of the Government to study their records problems in cooperation with their own records adminis trators, and to work out procedures whereby there will be a certain segregation of records as they are created and filed, so that it won't be necessary in the future for someone to spend years and years going through records to determine which ones are worth preserving, which ones should be disposed of, and which ones are needed for current use. We believe it will be possible to do as the English Government has done and as other governments have done to work out schedules for the disposal of records by types that will make it possible to avoid having to survey and appraise over and over again records of exactly the same types. For instance, it will be understood that such a type of record may be disposed of after 5 years; another type of record may be disposed of after 10 years. And we hope it will be understood that certain types of records will automatically be transferred to The National Archives after a certain period of years.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Is that a new agency?

Dr. Buck. Oh, no; it is just a project carried on in The National Archives.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. But won't it be necessary to create an agency to conduct that investigation?

Dr. Buck. No, sir; we are undertaking it ourselves.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. You are undertaking it, but do you expect to have certain personnel set aside to conduct that?

Dr. Buck. Yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is just it.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is provided for in the supplemental appropriation?

Dr. BUCK. That is provided for in the supplemental appropriation. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then you are setting up a new agency in your department for this, of your own personnel?

Dr. Buck. We do not consider it an agency or even a unit in the department. It is just a project and we are using these people for those purposes. We have been doing on a limited scale that sort of work heretofore, but we have not been able to do it systematically and to coordinate it throughout the agencies of the Government, because of insufficient competently trained and experienced personnel. That was why we asked for these nine additional professional workers in the supplemental Budget.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they going to be taken from civil service? Dr. BUCK. Yes; all positions will be taken from civil service. Mr. FITZPATRICK. As to the qualifications they must have: Who prepares the qualifications?

Dr. BUCK. I say they will all be taken from civil service. Actually these particular people who will be used for this work will be people who are already on the staff of The National Archives and have had experience and training in this work; then their positions will be filled from below and ultimately it will be necessary to get for the lower grade positions, which are vacated by promotions from within, employees for these jobs from the Civil Service Commission.

The Civil Service Commission gave an examination 2 years ago for junior archivist and set up a register, and I believe assistance was rendered by The National Archives to the Commission in drafting the examination and determining the qualification for those positions. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Will they get an increase in salary now if they are promoted up to that position?

Dr. BUCK. In some cases there will be promotions; in other cases they will probably be transferred at the same level.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Will there be any competitive examination as to those promotions, or will they be selected by you?

Dr. Buck. They will be selected by us. We have at present no competitive examination for promotions in The National Archives. Since I became Archivist, I have been discussing with our executive officer and director of personnel the desirability of making provision for promotional examinations within the institution and we hope to be able to install such examinations in the near future. Personally I believe it highly desirable that there should be such examinations.

CIVIL-SERVICE STATUS OF PERSONNEL

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many employees are there now who went in without any civil-service examination?

Mr. HARRIS. I would have to look that up to give you an accurate figure.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Well, what percentage of the present personnel? Mr. HARRIS. Approximately 57 percent of the present personnel were employed prior to the date The National Archives was placed under Civil Service.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. And they went in without any civil-service examination?

Mr. PAGE. No, sir. More than half of them had to pass a noncompetitive examination.

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Mr. FITZPATRICK. That means they qualified on their application; that is what you mean?

Mr. PAGE. No; about 60 percent of them actually had to pass an examination.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. A competitive examination?

Mr. PAGE. A noncompetitive examination.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That meant they were interviewed personally after filling out an application?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir. Stenographers, typists, and clerks actually had to take written examinations on which they were graded the same as if they were taking a competitive examination.

Mr. WOODRUM. But The Archives was not under civil service when it was originally created and the legislation putting it under civil service was attached to an appropriation bill that came out of this committee?

Mr. HARRIS. That is right.

Mr. HOUSTON. How large is that register; is it ample to take care of the immediate requirements?

Dr. BUCK. We are asking the Civil Service Commission to include in the junior professional examination which they expect to give in a few months another examination for junior archivists in order to build up additional registers. That is particularly desirable at the present time because there are more people now who do not have a civil-service status who have the desirable qualifications for these jobs than there were at the time that examination was given. Some of our educational institutions are giving courses for the training of people for archival work and many people have had experience doing archival work in the Historical Records Survey, which has been inventorying records of the States and counties throughout the country. Mr. HOUSTON. Do you get pretty good cooperation from the various universities over the country?

Dr. Buck. We get excellent cooperation; yes.
Mr. WOODRUM. Thank you, gentlemen.

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1941.

NATIONAL CAPITAL PARK AND PLANNING COMMISSION

STATEMENTS OF FREDERIC A. DELANO,

CHAIRMAN; A. E.

DEMARAY, ACTING EXECUTIVE OFFICER; T. S. SETTLE, SECRETARY AND LEGAL ADVISER; JOHN NOLEN, JR., DIRECTOR OF PLANNING; AND NORMAN C. BROWN, ASSOCIATE LAND PURCHASING OFFICER AND APPRAISER

ACQUISITION OF ADDITIONAL LAND For george WASHINGTON PARKWAY AND WITHIN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. WOODRUM. We have before us a Budget estimate for the National Capital Park and Planning Commission, as follows:

For all expenses necessary for the work of the National Capital Park and Planning Commission in carrying into effect the provisions of the Act entitled "An