Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I do not have the statement here of the Public Printer, but my memory is that he made the flat statement that the law was being violated in that respect.

Mr. BELL. I might state that we have questioned quite a number of those vouchers, those payments.

USE OF DEPARTMENTAL PERSONNEL BY CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATING COMMITTEES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Let me ask you one other thing. It has been alleged that one of the investigating committees on the Hill has been taking on clerks, and putting them on the pay roll of one of the Federal agencies; in effect, augmenting the funds that were made available for that investigation in that manner. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. BELL. That is quite true. I know of a number of cases and we have questioned some of them.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is that proper procedure, in the opinion of the General Accounting Office?

Mr. BELL. It is improper.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It is improper?

Mr. BELL. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you know whether, as a matter of fact, the Special Migratory Labor Committee has been following that practice, using the rolls of the Federal Communications Commission? Mr. BELL. I do not know about that particular case but I know that we have had some with the Federal Communications Commission.

Mr. WOODRUM. And with the Interstate Commerce Commission? Mr. BELL. Yes; there have been such instances come to attention involving the Interstate Commerce Commission, and I know of a number of cases in the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. We have one up now for consideration where the employee who was working up here at the Capitol was appointed and never even reported to the Department.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Whenever that situation comes to your attention, the payment is disallowed?

Mr. BELL. That is right.

Mr. STARNES. Does the same practice obtain with reference to many of the congressional investigations that are undertaken?

Mr. BELL. I really could not say how many there are, but it is done. Mr. STARNES. I have in mind this: The special committee on which I served was approached a number of times by persons seeking employment, who stated that if they were employed by our committee, they could be placed on the pay roll of other Government agencies so far as the matter of pay was concerned; that that practice had obtained in other congressional investigations on which they had worked, or which committees they had served.

Mr. WOODRUM. Of course, the vice of that practice and it is a vicious practice is that as to practically all of these investigating committees that we set up we provide in the law that they may call upon the departments for clerical assistance, or other help. That opens the door for them to go down and ask the General Accounting Office for investigators, or the Interstate Commerce Commission for

rate specialists, or the Federal Communications Commission for experts; and they go then a step further and blackjack the department and actually employ people that are not on the roll. They go very much beyond what Congress intended. I imagine Congress intended that if the committee needed an auditor, and the General Accounting Office could spare one for a few days, you would let them have one for a few days, if it did not upset your own work. But I do not think that it intended to approve the practice of some committee coming down and putting a gun in your ribs and saying, "Now, you employ this person, but he is going to work for us."

That certainly is a fraudulent practice, and personally I have objected to that every time I have had a chance to do so. I think the General Accounting Office should try, as far as it can, to compel these committees to hew to the line and to report these practices. I know this committee would like to have any instances of that kind reported, because it is very difficult for us to keep track of these things. We had one instance that I know of where it developed that 45 or 50 employees of the Interstate Commerce Commission were working every day for one of the Senate committees, and a large number of them were highsalaried employees, and the Interstate Commerce Commission were here telling us that they were behind in their work and needed more money.

Mr. STARNES. I am glad the chairman has brought that point out. I want the record to show that the Special Committee Investigating Un-American and Subversive Activities has not had any help from any department of the Federal Government, although they were authorized to call for it.

People approached us in the beginning of our investigation that had worked on the so-called La Follette committee, who told us that they could be placed on the pay roll of the Works Progress Administration and several other Government agencies, if they could obtain employment with our committee; that that procedure had been followed by the La Follette committee. We do know that that particular committee, which functioned over a period of years, had had Government officials loaned to it whose salaries totaled several hundred thousand dollars during the course of the investigation. Of course, they were investigating business and the House committee that I am referring to was investigating the subversive and un-American activities. But we did not receive any assistance; not even a courteous reply.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Did you receive any assistance from the Department of Justice?

Mr. STARNES. The Department of Justice refused to give us any assistance, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation refused to give us any assistance, and every other agency of the Government we happened to call upon refused to give us assistance. We were told that they were very deeply engaged upon other activities and had nobody to spare, when we knew that those very agencies were sending personnel out to work with other congressional committees. I do think that it has been a practice that has been abused by the Congress and the departments. I think it is most unfortunate, if you are studying the migratory labor problem, or if you are conducting an investigation of business, you can get all of the help you want from

any department of the Government, but when you come to investigate the activities of the enemies of the system of government that we have had for 150 years, you cannot get any assistance at all.

Mr. WOODRUM. My position has always been, if the committee needed the help, then Congress should provide the help, if it approves, and the money with which to pay them.

Mr. HOUSTON. It is unfair to the departments, too.

Mr. WOODRUM. It is very difficult to do sometimes.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. It can be provided for in the resolution creating the special committee.

Mr. HENDRICKS. We can put a limitation on the appropriation, can we not?

Mr. WOODRUM. The General Accounting Office is not the offender in that regard.

Mr. HENDRICKS. I mean on any of these appropriations.

Mr. BAITY. In our basic act, the Budget and Accounting Act, it is provided that the General Accounting Office may lend aid to committees of the Congress upon their call. There is some question about it-I think it says committees in control of appropriations. That has never been determined.

Mr. WOODRUM. You have never had much of that, have you?

Mr. BAITY. Not much. We loaned one man awhile back to the Naval Affairs Investigating Committee and one to the Military Affairs Investigating Committee.

Mr. WOODRUM. But it was not a question of going out and employing somebody, and then having these committees use them.

Mr. BAITY. No. Our request was for a dozen men and we loaned them one on the ground that we could not spare more than one. Mr. WOODRUM. If there is nothing further, gentlemen, thank you.

DECEMBER 11, 1941.

INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION

STATEMENTS OF JOSEPH B. EASTMAN, CHAIRMAN; CARROLL MILLER, COMMISSIONER; JOHN L. ROGERS, COMMISSIONER; J. MONROE JOHNSON, COMMISSIONER; AND W. P. BARTEL, SECRETARY

GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES

Mr. WOODRUM. We will take up next the items for the Interstate Commerce Commission, which are as follows:

General administrative expenses: For eleven Commissioners, secretary, and for other authorized expenditures necessary in the execution of laws to regulate commerce, including one chief counsel, one director of finance, and one director of traffic, at $10,000 each per annum, field hearings, traveling expenses, and contract stenographic reporting services, $2,908,012, of which amount not to exceed $2,565,000 may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia, exclusive of special counsel, for which the expenditure shall not exceed $50,000; not exceeding $5,000 for purchase and exchange of necessary books, reports newspapers, and periodicals.

REGULATING ACCOUNTS

Regulating accounts: To enable the Interstate Commerce Commission to enforce compliance with section 20 and other sections of the Interstate Commerce Act as amended by the Act approved June 29, 1906, the Transportation Act, 1920 .49 T. S. C. 20), and the Transportation Act of 1940, including the employment of necessary special accounting agents or examiners, and traveling expenses, $850,052, of which amount not to exceed $176,700 may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia.

SAFETY OF EMPLOYEES

Safety of employees: To enable the Interstate Commerce Commission to keep informed regarding and to enforce compliance with Acts to promote the safety of employees and travelers upon railroads; the Act requiring common carriers to make reports of accidents and authorizing investigations thereof; and to enable the Interstate Commerce Commission to investigate and test appliances intended to promote the safety of railway operation, as authorized by the joint resolution approved June 30, 1906 (45 T. S. C. 35), and the provision of the Sundry Civil Act approved May 27, 1908 (45 U. S. C. 36, 37), to investigate, test experimentally, and report on the use and need of any appliances or systems intended to promote the safety of railway operation, inspectors, and for traveling expenses, $510,955, of which amount not to exceed $92,000 may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia.

SIGNAL SAFETY SYSTEMS

Signal safety systems: For all authorized expenditures under section 25 of the Interstate Commerce Act, as amended by the Transportation Act, 1920, the Act of August 26, 1937 (49 U. S. C. 26), and the Transportation Act of 1940, with respect to the provision thereof under which carriers by railroad subject to the Act may be required to install automatic train-stop or train-control devices which comply with specifications and requirements prescribed by the Commission including investigations and tests pertaining to block-signal and train-control systems, as authorized by the joint resolution approved June 30, 1906 (45 U. S. C. 35, and including the employment of the necessary engineers, and for traveling expenses, $133,780, of which amount not to exceed $32,600 may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia.

LOCOMOTIVE INSPECTION

Locomotive inspection: For all authorized expenditures under the provisions of the Act of February 17, 1911, entitled "An Act to promote the safety of employees and travelers upon railroads by compelling common carriers engaged in interstate commerce to equip their locomotives with safe and suitable boilers and appurtenances thereto" (45 U. S. C. 22), as amended by the Act of March 4, 1915, extending "the same powers and duties with respect to all parts and appurtenances of the locomotive and tender" (45 U. S. C. 30), and amendment of June 7, 1924 (45 U. S. C. 27), providing for the appointment from time to time by the Interstate Commerce Commission of not more than fifteen inspectors in addition to the number authorized in the first paragraph of section 4 of the Act of 1911 (45 U. S. C. 26), and the amendment of June 27, 1930 (45 U. S. C. 24, 26), including such legal, technical, stenographic, and clerical help as the business of the offices of the director of locomotive inspection and his two assistants may require and for traveling expenses, $475,000, of which amount not to exceed $70,700 may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia.

VALUATION OF PROPERTY OF CARRIERS

Valuation of property of carriers: To enable the Interstate Commerce Commission to carry out the objects of the Act entitled "An Act to amend an Act entitled 'An Act to regulate commerce', approved February 4, 1887, and all Acts amendatory thereof, by providing for a valuation of the several classes of property of carriers subject thereto and securing information concerning their stocks, bonds,

and other securities", approved March 1, 1913, as amended by the Act of June 7, 1922 (49 U. S. C. 19a), and by the "Emergency Railroad Transportation Act, 1933" (49 U. S. C. 19a), including one director of valuation at $10,000 per annum, one valuation engineer at $7,500 per annum, and traveling expenses, $652,405.

MOTOR TRANSPORT REGULATION

Motor transport regulation: For all authorized expenditures necessary to enable the Interstate Commerce Commission to carry out the provisions of part II of the Interstate Commerce Act and section 5, part I, of the Interstate Commerce Act insofar as applicable to common carriers subject to part II (Transportation Act of 1940), including one director at $10,000 per annum and other personal services in the District of Columbia and elsewhere; traveling expenses; supplies; services and equipment; not to exceed $1,000 for purchase and exchange of books, reports, newspapers, and periodicals; contract stenographic reporting services; purchase (not to exceed $18,000), exchange, maintenance, repair, and operation of motor-propelled passenger-carrying vehicles when necessary for official use in field work; not to exceed $5,000 for the purchase of evidence in connection with investigations of apparent violations of said Act, $3,586,240: Provided, That Joint Board members may use Government transportation requests when traveling in connection with their duties as Joint Board members.

ATTENDANCE AT MEETINGS TRANSPORTATION OF HOUSEHOLD EFFECTS OF EMPLOYEES

Not to exceed $2,500 of the appropriations herein made for the Interstate Commerce Commission shall be available for expenses, except membership fees, for attendance at meetings concerned with the work of the Commission, and not to exceed $5,000 for transfer of household goods and effects as provided by the Act of October 10, 1940 (Public, Numbered 839), and regulations promulgated thereunder.

In all, salaries and expenses, Interstate Commerce Commission, $9,116,444.

PRINTING AND BINDING

For all printing and binding for the Interstate Commerce Commission, including reports in all cases proposing general changes in transportation rates and not to exceed $17,000 to print and furnish to the States, at cost, report form blanks, and the receipts from such reports and blanks shall be credited to this appropriation, $203,200.

SALARIES AND EXPENSES, NATIONAL DEFENSE

Salaries and expenses, emergency: For necessary expenses to enable the Interstate Commerce Commission, for the purpose of promoting the national security and defense, to adopt measures for preventing shortages of railroad equipment and congestion of traffic, and expediting the movement of cars by railroads through terminals, and related activities, $238,165.

JUSTIFICATION OF ESTIMATES

Mr. BARTEL. I offer for inclusion in the record the following justification:

The work of the Commission for the last year is covered in its annual report to Congress, which will be transmitted to you as soon as it can be printed and released.

In column 1 of figures below is the amount of our appropriation for the 1941 fiscal year including amounts received by transfer from other appropriations for the 1941 fiscal year. In column 2 our appropriations including supplemental appropriations for 1942 and in column 3 the amount approved for inclusion in the 1943 Budget estimates.