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all phases of civil-service law, argues for an increase in the number of junior attorneys available for this relatively simple work; the increase requested is from one to three. Finally, we are satisfied that a rating board of only four members will not suffice to meet the varied needs of our examination program, noncompetitive as well as competitive, and the remaining increase involves the addition of two members to this Board. The total increase amounts to $28,660 and the over-all estimate for personnel in 1943 totals $86,240. The other items relate to expert consultants (designed primarily to make minimal provision for our regional boards, should they require funds) and to travel for the members of the Board, the staff and the regional boards.

There is, I think, reason to believe that the expenditure of the sums requested will produce a net gain to the Government, even in an immediate financial sense. The amount involved is not greater than the expense of any alternative civilservice program which might be instituted with respect to the more than 6,000 lawyers involved, and there is reason to believe that the amount involved will be more than offset by the reduction of the cost of legal personnel administration within the agencies themselves. Many persons within the various agencies, including the general counsels, devote a substantial amount of time each year to problems involving personnel. The work that the Board is doing will serve beyond question to remove from their shoulders a part of their own present burdens, by reducing their actual participation, at least in the lower grades, to the limited task of selecting their men from the register that will be established by the Board.

Government attorneys who have participated in noncompetitive examinations as mem

bers of examining committees




Billig, Thomas.
Blau, Clarence I.
Cairns, Huntington.
Connor, Richard J.
Dickinson, Edwin D.

Ennis, Edward J.
Gardner, Warner.
Gross, Ernest A
Hoagland, Harrello
Hamilton, Walton..
Jenks, Christopher
Jones, Harry W.
Kelley, William T.
Lane, Chester T.
Levi, Edward.
Levy, Arnold
Levy, Irving
Nicholson, Vincent D.
Pogue, Welch
Pratt, George O
Rice, William G
Schoene, Lester P
Shea, Francis
Spingarn, Stephen J
Tipton, Stuart G..
Taylor, Telford
Van Arkel, Gerhard P
Wallace, Gerald..

Assistant General Counsel.

Federal Security Administration.
Assistant Solicitor

Assistant General Counsel.


Federal Power Commission.
Special Assistant to Attorney Gen. Justice.

General Counsel.

Immigration and Naturalization.

Assistant General Counsel.

National Labor Relations Board.

General Accounting.
Special Assistant to Attorney Gen- Justice.

Assistant General Counsel

Securities Exchange Commission.
Senior attorney.

Office of Production Management.
Chief counsel.

Federal Trade Commission.
General Counsel.

Securities Exchange Commission.
Special Assistant to Attorney Justice.

General Counsel.

Bituminous Coal (Interior).
Assistant Solicitor

Assistant General Counsel.

Rural Electrification Administration,
General Counsel.

Civil Aeronautics Board.
Chicf Trial Examiner

National Labor Relations Board.
Special member of the Board. National Defense Mediation Board.
General Counsel.

Railroad Retirement.
Assistant Attorney General

Special Assistant General Counsel. Treasury.
Assistant General Counsel.

Civil Aeronautics Board.
General Counsel.

Federal Communications Commission.
Principal attorney.

National Labor Relations Board.
Special Assistant to Attorney Justice.

General Counsel.

National Labor Relations Board.


Watts, Robert B.
White, Mastin.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Mr. Fahy, as I understand the history of this board, it was set up by Executive order.

Mr. Fahy. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. After the committees of Congress had denied the neeessary funds, it has been fed, so to speak, out of funds already available to the Commission for other purposes?

Mr. Fahy. Mr. Wigglesworth, the Executive order was under congressional authority; the act of November 19, 1940, I believe. It is true that up until the present time we have had no funds included in the Civil Service Appropriation Acts for this purpose.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. In fact, they were specifically turned down by the committees of the House and Senate.

Mr. Custer. If I may interrupt the Solicitor General for a moment, the Executive' order, Mr. Wigglesworth, was issued under date of April 23, 1941; Executive Order No. 8743. The Civil Service Commission and its Board of Legal Examiners were before the Congress in the fall of 1941.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. For the first time?

Mr. Custer. For the first time. So that we were not before you for funds for the Board until approximately 6 months after the President had established the Board, and after the Board had had an opportunity to formulate, tentatively, its initial program.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. But no funds have, in fact, been allowed for the program to date?

Mr. Custer. To date the Congress has not appropriated any moneys.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. And in fact those funds were denied in December, or whenever it was?

Mr. CUSTER. That is correct.

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Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Now, as I understand the proposed program applies not only to young lawyers coming out of law schools, but it applies to every lawyer desiring to enter the Government or in the Government service today, does it not?

Mr. Fahy. They are almost all covered, yes.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. With a few exceptions?
Mr. Fahy. With some exceptions, yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. And you are going to give an examination; follow this by an interview, and then check up by investigators in the field the way the civil service does in regard to other positions?

Mr. Fahy. Yes, they will have to do that, on the basis of their work done, if they are already in the service.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Having qualified for the register and wanting a job in one agency or another, I suppose a candidate will then have

I to go to the personnel expert of the particular agency.

Mr. Faux. No. The qualifications to determine whose names are to go on the register will be under the supervision of the Board.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. But, having qualified for that register, there comes the further step of finding a position with a given agency?

Mr. FAHY. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Perhaps a man, having qualified, wants to go with a particular agency. In that case he will go to the personnel

. expert of that agency, is that right?

Mr. Fahy. Yes. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. And he will go through the whole process, all over again, under the jurisdiction of the personnel expert, is that right?

Mr. Fahy. Mr. Wigglesworth, it will be the head of the regular staff

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Of the agency?

Mr. Fahy. Yes, sir; I think that is the way actually in practice it will operate.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is he going to examine him and interview him, and check him up in the field again?

Mr. Fahy. No, sir.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. There will not be any of that?
Mr. Fahy. No, sir; if, on the register, he is eligible for the position.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What use is a nongraded register considering the broad scope of legal work in the Government? It must be a minimum standard that puts him on there?

Mr. Fahy. You are exactly correct about that. He must qualify according to a minimum standard but the register will not be unlimited in size and will represent the best available men-to the number fixed-selected from all those who apply. As to whether the particular general counsel wants John Brown on the register, or Sam Smith, in preference to John Brown, is a matter of his choice.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. But the job has got to be done all over again, has it not?

Mr. Fahy. No, sir; not at all. In either event, he is eligible for the position. That is fixed after he is on the register.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. But his capacity is not determined. He may be fitted to become general counsel for some large agency or he may be fitted only for some legal clerical job.

Mr. Cửster. Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt Mr. Fahy again for just a moment; I think Mr. Cannon could, in a few words, give to the members of the committee a statement respecting the selective certification processes which have been going on over the years. It would clarify the situation.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I am familiar with the work of the Commission outside of this legal field that we are talking about now. I am

I trying to get clear in my mind what use a nongraded register is, for practical purposes.

Mr. Fahy. At the present time the men are graded. There is a civil-service grade.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I understand that they would not be, under this new proposal.

Mr. Fahy. They will be graded in order to obtain a place on the register. But they are not ranked with relation to each other on the register.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Nor with respect to a particular position or classification of position?

Mr. Fahy. That is true. But their qualifications will be in the record; if you are looking for a particular man, with particular qualifications, the information is available, and the chief of the legal staff has a range from which to choose.

Mr. FitzPATRICK. Assuming that the Federal Power Commission wanted two attorneys. How would they select them from that list?

Mr. Fahy. The head of the legal staff of the Federal Power Commission would make his selection from the list.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How? Would he have to go over the entire list to see who had the practical experience for that position?

Mr. WECHSLER. I think I can answer that. It is quite clear that with an unranked register, the Board will have to provide an information service for the benefit of general counsel, so that men who have had a special experience of a particular sort in which the general counsel is interested, could be picked out.

Mr. Houston. You would have to catalog the whole list, in other words?

Mr. WECHSLER. We would catalog the list, but it would have no legal force; it would simply be an information service that would help the General Counsel to decide who are the people worth interviewing. I think there are two answers to your question, if I may give theni. One is, this process will shorten by 90 percent, perhaps, the effort that is now being made by general counsels to find competent men; and second, the characteristics of all these men on the register will be cross-indexed and cataloged, so that if he says, “I want a trained examiner,” or “I want a man to do this, that, or the other type of work,” we can give bim in a very short time a list of 20 or 30 men who have had the kind of experience he is looking for.

At the present time, some of these general counsels arr spending an enormous amount of very valuable time looking for competent mien. This register will guarantee that all of the men to be considered have certain minimum qualifications which are relatively high qualifications for Government positions.

Mr. WOODRUM. Mr. Wigglesworth, Mr. Fahy answered one of your questions in such a way as to leave me a little bit confused, as to whether I understood him correctly.

It is not contemplated that the Board is going to examine all of the attorneys who are already employed by the Government?

Mr. Fahy. No. There will be no register as to them, of course.

Mr. WIGGLES WORTH. I thought this proposal applied to all attorneys in the service, as well as those desiring to enter the service.

Mr. Fahy. I would like Mr. Wechsler to answer that question, if he may. They acquire their civil-service status through the processes of the Board.

Mr. WECHSLER. Under the Ramspeck Act, and the Executive order, there will be a covering-in process for the incumbents of legal positions. The plan of the Board is to follow as closely as possible the procedure that will be employed by the Commission for covering in incumbents of nonlegal positions included within the act and the Executive order that will be eligible for status.

The method of operation is prescribed by the statute. There must be the recommendation of the head of the agency. Then the Board will come in in two ways. First, it will do the routine work of receiving the recommendations from the heads of the agencies, receive the forms; second, the Board is authorized to prescribe a noncompetitive examination, such as the Commission prescribes for covering in incumbents. That examination, it is contemplated, will be based primarily on work done. That is to say, it is another way really of referring to the recommendation of the head of the agency. It is not contemplated that incumbents will be called in for new examining processes, except perhaps in case of doubt, where there is a real question submitted by the head of the agency.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. So that every lawyer in the Federal service, with a few exceptions, is subject, for retention in office, to the approval by your Commission, although he will not go on the register if approved?

Vr. WECHSLER. That is right; if he gets civil-service status by covering in, then he has the rights of a civil service employee for transfer, reinstatement, and, of course, retirement security.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. One other question, Jr. Fahr. I understand you have been operating on about $57,000 or $58.000, and you want to go to $100,000 now, and you tell us you are contemplating proposed regional boards throughout the country. Mention was just made of the requirement of an informational service to make the results of your work available.

What do you look forward to in terms of size and expense, ultimately, if you are going to set up boards all through the country?

Mr. Fahy. Well, those boards will be voluntary boards.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Entirely voluntary?
Mr. Fahy. Yes, sir.

Mr. WiggleSWORTH. Do you think $100,000 is going to be the maximum that you are going to require for this work, as we go further along?

Mr. Fahy. That is pretty hard to say, sir. Mr. Wigglesworth. What do you foresee, in a general way? Mr. Fahy. As far as I can foresee now, it will be the maximum; Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You do not look forward to any continuing expansion?

Mr. Fahy. No, sir; I think very moderately, if at all. But I do not see a large organization. As a matter of fact, I think the estimate contemplates 26 employees, which is rather small, for dealing with 6,000 lawyers and recruitment for an indefinite period of time. I think it is a rather economical operation. The work would have to be done by some one if it were not done in just this manner, assuming that these lawyers are to remain in the civil service, and that new employees who come into the Government on legal status are going to be civil service employees.

yes, sir.


Mr. WOODRUM. I would like to ask Mr. Cannon what would be the process of covering in the attorneys who are already in the Government service? What would be the requirements as to age and other qualifications? Have you any rules formulated for that yet?

Mr. CANNON. No; we have no standards set up for passing on qualifications.

Mr. WOODRUM. Are there any age requirements?

Mr. CANNON. No, sir; only that they have not passed the retirement age.

Mr. WOODRUM. Will there be any age limitation?
Mr. CANNON. In covering in incumbents?
Mr. Cannon. No, sir.

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