General MCKEE. Only in an informal way, based on my background and experience in the Air Force.

The CHAIRMAN. Based upon your background over in the Air Force? General MCKEE. Right, over a period of years, and knowledge of

contractors.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever discussed with Mr. Webb or others. the so-called patent situation with NASA?

General MCKEE. Only in a very general way.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you tell us in what general way you discussed it?

General MCKEE. Well, maybe this is the time, Mr. Chairman, where pretty nearly all that has been said about the patent policy-I have a very short statement which I dictated day before yesterday after reading the transcript. Perhaps I should read it to clarify my position.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know about your statement, but I heard a lot of discussion about that matter a few days ago. That is why I want you to clear or at least make a statement for the record on it. General MCKEE. I would like very much to, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

Mr. Chairman, I do not claim to be an expert on patent matters. During my 10 months at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, I have had nothing to do with the formulation or administration of the agency's patent policy. I should say here, however, that I do not intend any implication regarding the manner in which NASA has carried out this aspect of their program. Expecting that I might be questioned on patent policy in connection with my nomination to be Administrator of FAA, I have looked into this matter in a general way. I am informed that FAA is not governed by any specific statutory patent policy and therefore is bound by the patent policy guidelines issued by President Kennedy in 1963 and reaffirmed, I understand, by President Johnson.

I am further informed that the present patent practices of FAA are in conformance with the Presidential policy on patents. While I have made no investigation as to the details of the implementation of this policy, I have been told by Mr. Halaby that the Presidential guidelines on patents govern FAA and are being followed by that Agency. As FAA Administrator, I would expect to follow the same policy.

In other words, I see no reason why patent policy or practice would be any different under me than it has been under Mr. Halaby.

It has been suggested because of my background that I might change the FAA patent policy. I have no such intention. I shall act in accordance with the Presidential guidelines, just as I understand Mr. Halaby has been doing.

Mr. Chairman, I do not feel qualified, nor am I prepared to comment on this matter in any greater detail at the present time. I am aware, however, that several bills providing for Government-wide patent policy are presently before the Congress and that hearings are presently in progress before Senator McClellan's committee. Mr. Chairman, I would like to assure you and the members of your committee that any action on my part regarding patents will be in accordance with Government policy, the laws passed by the Congress, and to the best of my ability, in the best interest of the public as a whole.

That is the end of my statement, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. In effect, what you have said, as I understand it, s that the FAA have had a policy on patent rights consistent with he Presidential directives by President Kennedy and reaffirmed by President Johnson?

General McKEE. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that you have no idea, or at least you have no lesire or feeling about making any other changes and that you would follow out the same policy that is now being carried out in the FAA? General McKEE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions by the committee on that point? Senator MONRONEY. Senator Long said he would try to make it to the hearing. However, he is quite tied up this morning and the Senate will take up his patent amendment, S. 596, about 1 p.m. He does not want to postpone the hearings, but would like to have two questions asked, so I will repeat: Are you familiar with FAA's patent policy? General McKEE. I am.

Senator MONRONEY. This is the one you just affirmed that is President Kennedy's and President Johnson's?

General McKEE. That is correct.

Senator MONRONEY. May I ask, does this include the rights, patent rights remaining in the FAA where research is done with FAA money? Is that a general statement?

General MCKEE. That is a general statement. There are two provisions in the law, the Presidential directive, that FAA is following. That has to do with where the contract is providing either a service or a product that provides service to the public or is in the interest of the public welfare. There are two particular sections of the law which outline that and that is what most of FAA's operations come under. I obviously expect to follow that. Now, what the Congress is going to do with patent business, I do no know, but whatever laws the Congress comes up with as regards patents, I would expect to follow those laws, both as to letter and as to spirit.

Senator MONRONEY. But-I am asking this for Senator Long-unless Congress changes the law, if confirmed, do you intend to modify in any way this policy?

General MCKEE. I do not. I have no such intention.

Senator MONRONEY. I wanted to clear that up. This was a specific request of Senator Long's.

General MCKEE. I shall be very happy to go by and talk with Senator Long if the committee wishes.

Senator MONRONEY. I believe it would be advisable, because Senator Long feels very strongly about this subject. Senator Hartke also has some misgivings.

Senator LAUSCHE. In substance, do I understand you to say that you will follow the law and the guidelines laid down by the President? General MCKEE. That is correct, Senator.

Senator LAUSCHE. And that Mr. Halaby, in what he was doing, followed the directions of President Kennedy and President Johnson? General MCKEE. I have been so informed.

Senator LAUSCHE. And you do not contemplate changing that procedure at all?

General MCKEE. I do not, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions on this patent matter by anybody?

Senator Hartke?

Senator HARTKE. General, as I understand, there was a different policy followed in NASA, is that correct?

General MCKEE. NO, NASA, I think-if Mr. Webb were here, and I am no expert-as I pointed out in my statement, I had nothing to do with the formulation of patent policy in NASA. But I think Mr. Webb, if he were here, would probably say that NASA has a somewhat different problem than the FAA. If you read in detail, which I am sure you have, this whole Presidential policy, there are a lot of different conditions laid down and different situations. Obviously, every situation is not the same. But I am sure that Mr. Webb would tell you that looking at the problem confronting him as Administrator of NASA, he is pursuing the President's policy. I am not in a position, because I have not read the details, and there are reams of papers on the patent policy and controversies back and forth, and as I have pointed out in my statement I do not know enough about the details to comment.

I do know, as I have said here, what they are doing in FAA. FAA has a reasonably simple problem and I see no great difficulties therein. Senator HARTKE. În other words, what you are saying is that what you intend to do is pursue the policies as you see them, is that what you are saying?

General MCKEE. As I say, Mr. Halaby has been carrying out the President's policy. He has told me what he has been doing. My point is I have no intention of changing this.

Senator HARTKE. And Mr. Webb, according to what you say, has been following out the President's policy, too, is that right?

General MCKEE. That is right.

Senator HARTKE. I believe this presents exactly the question which Senator Long would like to have answered. Which policy are you going to pursue, those policies pursued by NASA or those policies pursued by FAA? In other words, this is the heart of the problem which is on the Senate floor at the moment. As I understood Senator Long, he wanted a definitive answer on that and if you followed the debate, which I am certain you did, you were aware of what is going to happen today in this field.

Senator Long stated on the floor of the Senate that he wanted an answer to this question. I assured him at that time that I would try to find an answer to it. Now, we have an answer; that is, that you are going to follow two policies which in his opinion are directly opposed to each other.

Senator LAUSCHE. I object to that statement. He never said that. General MCKEE. I said I would follow the policy laid downSenator HARTKE. The gentleman can object all he wants to and I will ask any question I want to.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee is having questioning and I hope

Senator HARTKE. If you do not want to pursue this question, that is all right. Senator Long asked for an answer to the question.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman of this committee told the Senate last week that we would have General McKee up here and that we

could pursue questions on this matter as long as we wished, as many days as we wished or as many hours. We want to have the questions answered fully and I suspect the nominee wants to answer them. It is not that no one wants to pursue this policy. This is the reason we

are having this hearing. We can have the hearing go on today and tomorrow and the next day and all week, if we wish, until everyone is satisfied that the nominee's answers-that he has answered the questions, whether they agree with him or not. I do not think we should have any insinuation that no one wants to pursue this policy.

Senator HARTKE. I did not insinuate that. The Senator from Ohio interrupted me. I think I have a right to ask any questionsThe CHAIRMAN. Yes, you do. You go right ahead.

Senator LAUSCHE. I interrupted because you attributed to the witness a statement that he never made.

Senator HARTKE. I never attributed anything to the witness.

Senator LAUSCHE. You attributed to the witness the statement that he did not indicate which policy he would follow, that of FAA or that of NASA. He never said that.

Senator HARTKE. I think the witness is perfectly capable of answering questions for himself.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us pursue the questioning.

Senator HARTKE. As I understand, the witness has said, and I am directing this to you, General, you have said that you feel that there is a difference in the policies as they are administered in FAA and those which are administered in NASA?

General MCKEE. I did not say that.

Senator HARTKE. Well, let me see what you did say. What is the difference-let me correct it then.

General MCKEE. I pointed out clearly that I had not been involved in the NASA patent policies, I have had nothing whatever to do with it. I do not even know the details. I merely know that Mr. Webb would say, I am sure, that he is following out the patent policy in NASA as he interprets the Presidential policy letter and I have stated categorically that I have looked into what is being done at FAA. I have discussed it with Mr. Halaby and I have stated it here for the record. I have no intention of changing the FAA patent policy, Senator. This is my statement and I stick by it.

Senator HARTKE. Well, if there is in fact a difference in the administration of the policies, would you follow those which were generally followed by NASA or would you follow those policies which heretofore have been followed in the FAA?

General MCKEE. I will follow, as I stated here, I would expect to follow the patent policy now in existence as interpreted in FAA as it applies to the FAA problem. I cannot be more clear under the circumstances, Senator, than what I have said—I thought.

Senator HARTKE. As I understand what you are saying, then, it is that you intend to follow the policies of the President's directive as interpreted presently by Mr. Halaby as the Director of the Federal Aviation Administration, is that correct?

General MCKEE. That is correct.

Senator HARTKE. That is what I was trying to find out.
Senator LAUSCHE. May I have another question?

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Lausche.

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Senator LAUSCHE. To get clear your answers given to Senator Magnuson about your functions in NASA, you were assigned the responsibility of making a study of the organizational operations as to efliciency; am I correct, in that?

General MCKEE. Yes, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. You had nothing whatsoever to do with the patent policy?

General MCKEE. Nothing, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. You had nothing whatsoever to do with the decisions made in the assignment of contracts?

General MCKEE. Nothing, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. And Mr. Webb intentionally kept you out of the contract awarding proceedings for some reason which he had, is that correct?

General MCKEE. That is correct.

Senator LAUSCHE. Do you know what the reason was?

General MCKEE. The reason he wanted to free me, with my background and experience, to take an objective look at the entire operation of NASA without being pinned down in day-to-day operations. Senator LAUSCHE. And with respect to the award of contracts, the only contact that you had was to express an opinion as to whether the procedure could be improved to insure better service and returns to the taxpayer?

General MCKEE. That is correct, sir.

Senator LAUSCHE. I think that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further on this point?
Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General, as I understand the situation on this patent policy, you do not know the details of the NASA patent policy and have had nothing to do with that; is that so?

General McKEE. That is correct.

Senator CANNON. But you do know, you are familiar with the patent policies that have been followed by the FAA?

General MCKEE. That is correct. In general, not in detail. I have had talks with Mr. Halaby about it.

Senator CANNON. And you are familiar with the interpretation of those policies by your predecessor?

General McKEE. That is correct.

Senator CANNON. And it is your intention to follow that interpretation unless the law is changed or the President's guidelines are changed?

General McKEE. That is correct.

Senator PEARSON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pearson.

Senator PEARSON. General, as a matter of fact, in the FAA procedures and operations, there is very little now that pertains to the patent field; is that so?

General MCKEE. Compared with NASA, it is very, very small.

Senator PEARSON. And where we are going to get into this problem is on the supersonic transport?

General McKEE. I would think so.

Senator PEARSON. If we go ahead and make construction of it?