logging air operation. We also handled contracts for CRAF, Civilian Reserve Air Fleet. Before this time, I was Chief of Staff of the Air Transport Command. At one point in time, I also commanded the European Division of the Air Transport Command.

I do not claim to be an expert in civil aviation, but I have had contact with it off and on throughout all these years.

Senator HARTKE. Your contact primarily was in the field of procurement or in operations?

General MCKEE. Primarily in the field of contracting in procurement, not in dictation of operations.

Senator HARTKE. So basically so far as your contact with civilian aviation is concerned, in the operational end, it has been very limited. Is that a fair statement?

General McKEE. That is a fair statement.

Senator HARTKE. During this time that you were in the military did. you deal in the basic operation of technology and electronics?

General MCKEE. Not from a technical sense, but in a management sense, yes.

Senator HARTKE. Explain that.

General MCKEE. Well, for example, at Wright-Patterson, in the Air Materiel Command, in particular, we did all the procurement and production activities pertaining both to weapons systems, which included, obviously, electronics.

Senator HARTKE. Did you have any connection with the development of high-speed aircraft for the Air Force?

General MCKEE. On the same basis, on a management basis, because the special project offices that procured weapons systems like the B52, the F-102, the F-106, and the B-70, and so forth, came under our direction.

Senator HARTKE. Well, basically, then, your contact and most of your operation has been in the field of procurement. Is that true?

General MCKEE. No, not completely, because the field of procurement was only one part of the Air Material Command. The Air Material Command was charged with the worldwide logistics support of the entire Air Force and we were scattered all over the world. We handled the entire maintenance problem, worldwide, the entire supply problem worldwide. The supply problem alone, as you probably know, then was a multibillion dollar business. So procurement was only one facet of the overall logistics field.

Senator HARTKE. I think that is a fair answer to my question.

What I really meant in regard to the field of civilian contact, basically, your activities in relation to civilian aviation or to civilians, generally speaking, dealt with the field of procurement, is that true? General MCKEE. That is true. With regard to civilian aviation. Obviously, we had many dealings with civilian firms, educational institutions, and everything else, all the time.

Senator HARTKE. That is right, with corporations and with people of that sort. But not in the relationship of a direct control of civilian aviation or anything related to that?

General MCKEE. No; not directly related to civilian aviation operations.

Senator HARTKE. Now, in the course of this career, you did have civilian employees in the military?

General MCKEE. That is true.

Senator HARTKE. That is also true at NASA?

General MCKEE. That is true. Of course, in the Air Materiel Command, it was largely civilian, so was the Logistics. We had 190,000 civilians at one point. When I left the Logistics Command, I think we had 140,000, so it was predominantly civilian.

Senator HARTKE. How many military were there?

General MCKEE. I have forgotten the exact number, but it was only 20 or 25 percent of the number.

Senator HARTKE. Did you at that time transfer or make any changes which would put military personnel into places where priority at that time had been held by civilians?

General MCKEE. I do not remember. I am sure we did, because there were times and occasions where it appeared to be the right thing to do.

In the logistics business-let us take Vietnam as an examplefrequently, you have to get special teams set up to go overnight to a place like Vietnam, the Cuban situation, any of these others. It is wise in some of these places to have a military man in charge. We did not do it on a great scale and we did not do it on the basis of we just wanted a military man in there.

Senator HARTKE. Let me make this very clear to you that I am not trying to place you in any kind of trap. What I am trying to find out is the method of operation and I am not going to criticize or do not want you to infer that I am criticizing the fact that when you are running a military operation, the mere fact that you may put a man into a spot held by a civilian may be good military judgment; is that not true?

General MCKEE. Very frequently, it is.

Senator HARTKE. That may be part of what you said here.

General MCKEE. That is right. There were criticisms at the time, internally. Any time you did that, there were criticisms.

Senator HARTKE. This is what I am trying to come back to. There was criticism in this field and what I am trying to direct your attention to ultimately is exactly what your explanation of that criticism was. It is fair to say there was criticism of that activity, right?

General MCKEE. Oh, yes.

Senator HARTKE. Now, what is your explanation of that criticism? General MCKEE. My explanation of the criticism was that I think it was unfounded. It was done only in a limited number of cases. It was done on the basis that you have to be able to eliminate difficulties, because in the final analysis, the reason for the exercise was to support the fighting forces. It was done on the basis that in military jobs, many of these people had to be trained in logistics training, subject to orders, subject to going into the Congo in the middle of the night and you had to have enough capability and know-how to get this done.

Senator HARTKE. Was it not possible to do this with the civilians you had?

General MCKEE. In some cases, we did not feel it was.

Senator HARTKE. What was the basis of this feeling?

General MCKEE. We had no authority, for example, to up and order a civilian working at point A to go into the battle zone in Vietnam.

Senator HARTKE. Well, in that regard, was this the character of the shift in personnel from civilian to military? Was this all in the field of combat personnel or people who were moved to combat zones? General MCKEE. This was the general thinking behind it.

Of course, Senator, there was another movement the other way. Frequently, also, we made changes where a civilian took over a job formerly held by a military man. My guess is if you measured them all out, you would find there were as many cases where the civilian took over from the miltary as there were where the military took over from the civilian.

Senator HARTKE. You do not know the numbers of the movement either way, though, is that true?

General McKEE. No.

Senator HARTKE. Your general feeling about the movement of military personnel into civilian spots, was it done in any cases in which people were not going to be moved or not subject to movement into combat zones?

General MCKEE. I cannot answer that question, Senator. I remember the problem, I remember when the things came up, we did it on the basis at the time--I do not remember all the details-only when we felt it could be fully justified. That was one of the criteria.

Senator HARTKE. During this time, would you classify the criticism and the general dissatisfaction that occurred at that time as major

or minor?

General MCKEE. Minor.

Senator HARTKE. And was it minor in numbers or was it minor in its location as to areas in which it was occurring?

General MCKEE. Minor both ways.

Senator HARTKE. How much change occurred at Dayton?

General MCKEE. Oh, at Dayton, as a matter of fact, very little, because you see, Dayton was a headquarters enunciating policy. The changes that you are referring to occurred at our big depots, for example, at Oklahoma City.

As a matter of fact, Senator, you will remember I had a little problem with Oklahoma City when we did that a couple of times. The Senator is well aware of it.

Senator HARTKE. I know, but I am not from Oklahoma and I am not well aware of it. That is the difference.

In these executive positions, for example, at Dayton, were there any changes there made from the civilians holding the positions into the military?

General McKEE. I do not remember.

I am sure there were, but then, I am sure there were both ways. The whole time I was in Dayton, we had no problem in this regard. The only place that I remember any problems were out in the depots when we did this. I do not remember any problems at Dayton. I would have heard about them if they had been significant.

Senator HARTKE. There were none whatsoever?

General MCKEE. I did not say that. I say I do not remember any significant problem at Dayton. I do not remember a single problem coming to my attention in this regard at Dayton. There may have been. I do not remember.

Senator HARTKE. And when you were at NASA, were you in charge of personnel at all?

General MCKEE. I had nothing to do with personnel in NASA. Senator HARTKE. Were those under your immediate concern? General MCKEE. I had one person under my immediate command. That was a secretary.

Senator HARTKE. So you had no possible opportunity at NASA whatsoever to deal with the question of personnel, is that right? General McKEE. That is true.

Senator HARTKE. You did make some recommendations, though, as to operating of the agency. Was that outside of the field of personnel? General MCKEE. Yes. I did not get into the personnel business. Senator HARTKE. In your study as to the operation of NASA as to its efficiency, you did not consider personnel?

General MCKEE. Only in terms of the overall management of personnel, not personnel per se, this man, this man or this man.

Senator HARTKE. I think that is really what I am interested in. I think this is probably the concern of the committee and the Members of the Congress; that is, in your study as to the personnel itself-we are not dealing with personalities per se, but in your study of the operations, the organization operations as to efficiency, did you have recommendations to make concerning those people who were heading the various departments in NASA?

General MCKEE. No, I did not.

Senator HARTKE. Was it considered, or was this considered outside of the scope of your study?

General MCKEE. Not necessarily. I could have done it had I wished. I was perfectly free to make any recommendations to Mr. Webb that I saw fit.

Senator HARTKE. Well, did you study the question of efficiency of personnel as they were characterized?

General MCKEE. No, I did not, except in a general, overall way, in my many visits throughout NASA.

Senator HARTKE. It seems to me that if you were studying efficiency, was there any reason-let me correct that. Was there any reason why you would not study it? If you were studying the overall organization operations-as I understand this was the term used-as to efficiency, would not personnel come within the category, certainly, of the scope of such an investigation?

General MCKEE. In a broad sense, yes. I made certain recommendations to Mr. Webb, personally, on certain aspects of the overall personnel problem, but again without getting into a particular person running a particular project.

Senator HARTKE. The question as to how the NASA's overall organization operation could be improved did not, then, take into consideration the situation as to personnel, only incidentally, is that what your are saying?

General MCKEE. It was a part of it in terms of the management of the entire personnel force and how it should be organized, and so forth.

Senator HARTKE. Well, you realize that coming into this agency as a retired military man to a place which is required to be held by a civilian, you are going to have to be very astute in avoiding criticism, is that not true?

General MCKEE. I understand that very clearly, Senator. Senator HARTKE. Let me ask you this question, then: Would you lean over backward in either direction in regard to the operation of FAA-in other words, would you refuse to

General MCKEE. You have raised the $64 question. I was asked this question in the House, and one of your distinguished colleagues in the House who made quite a speech to the effect that it was practically impossible for me, being a military man, not to finally militarize FAA, not to instinctively make recommendations of the military in FAA. When he got all through, I had to say that was not the problem, the problem was to not bend over backward too far. The problem was to be right, fair, and just in carrying out the provisions of the Federal Aviation Act.

Senator HARTKE. In other words, you feel that due to your training and background, you feel that possibly, instinctively, you might tend to lean toward the military, so now your fear is that

General MCKEE. No; I will not instinctively lean toward the military at all, because being a military man, everybody internally and people in the Congress are going to be looking at me. I am not going to be able to get by with one single thing in favor of the military, even if I wanted to, because you and the chairman and everybody else will say, "McKee, what are you doing over there?"

Senator HARTKE. I do not think you are intentionally going to get by with anything. I think you are going to try to do a good job.

General MCKEE. I am going to try to do the best I can.

Senator HARTKE. I do not think the President would nominate anybody who would try to get by with anything. I do not personally think you are going to do that.

Would you willingly report to this committee any changes in personnel in the executive capacity or basically those of the higher ranking officials, any changes which occurred whereby a civilian was replaced by a military personnel?

General MCKEE. If this is the wish of the committee, I would do so, if I had to.

Senator HARTKE. Would you make such a report to this Senator from Indiana if such changes occurred whether they be military people who are on active duty or those who had completed their active duty tour?

General MCKEE. If you wish.

Senator MONRONEY. The law now requires us to have a report twice a year on that very subject.

Senator HARTKE. I want to say, I did not intend to bring this up, but I have been trying to find out ever since these hearings have been set from the Civil Service Commission, and the Civil Service Committee, of which both of us are members, and we have not been able to come up with any answer to this problem. I tried to find out in one category, and especially I am interested in this. I hoped with the confirmation of General McKee that he would make a determined effort to try to find out what is going on in the Medical Department there, because the information that I have personally and that which I received in the committee is at wide variance and I do not expect the general to know what the answer to that may be until he has a chance to be there and look into it.

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