EMERGENCY FIRE FIGHTING COSTS Senator BIBLE. A very fine statement, Chief. It is always good to see you and your very fine crew here. We appreciate the fine work the Forest Service does. On balance it seems to me you get about as little criticism of any one of our governmental agencies, and that is saying something. Next to us, I think many of the agencies receive unending criticism. I think you gentlemen of the Forest Service are doing an overall fine job. Do you include this item of $2 or $3 million in your fiscal year 1971 budget for overtime pay? Mr. CLIFF. That would be reflected in the emergency firefighting costs for which we submit, each year, a supplemental which is considered by the Senate Subcommittee on Supplemental Appropria tions. Senator BIBLE. You handle that through your supplemental appropriation? Mr. CLIFF. Yes. Senator BIBLE. I should think it would make a good case on it if the firefighter fights in excess of the regular time. What is the regular time that you keep a firefighter? You certainly can't punch a clock when you are fighting a fire. How many hours does that average a week? Is that a 40-hour week? Mr. CLIFF. The regular time is the legal work week of 40 hours. When we have men on fires they may work two or three times that long. These men have often worked 80 hours a week. We try, however, to keep our crews from working too long at a time because the fatigue factor reduces their efficiency. But inevitably when you get on fires overtime is involved. REASON FOR CHANGE IN OVERTIME PAY Senator BIBLE. Why has this not been done in the past? This is the first time, is this true? Or isn't it true? Mr. CLIFF. Senator, the reason we have not paid premium pay for overtime in the past is Senator BIBLE. Do you pay overtime? Let me get it clear? Mr. CLIFF. For time worked over the 40-hour week, we pay straight time rates. Senator BIBLE. You pay straight time for overtime? That is based on what, time and a half for overtime? Mr. CLIFF. The premium pay would be actually Senator BIBLE. Double time or not? Mr. CLIFF. No, not double time. It would amount to about time and a half but for the higher salaried people there is a gradation downward for the premium pay. Senator BIBLE. I see. Mr. CLIFF. We have not done it in the past because of our desire to keep costs down, but times have changed and Senator BIBLE. What do you mean, times have changed? You are still trying to keep costs down? Mr. CLIFF. Pardon? Senator BIBLE. You said times have changed. I mean you are leav ing the inference that you are no longer trying to keep costs down. I am sure before a budget hearing you try to keep costs down. Mr. CLIFF. We are still trying to keep costs down, but times have changed in relation to dealing with people that we hire to do this kind of work. Senator BIBLE. Do you have difficulty getting firefighters? Mr. CLIFF. Yes. It is difficult to hire good firefighters. If we had not gone to the system of hiring full time fire crews during the fire season and keeping them on duty, we would be in very bad shape and our losses from fire would have been greater. We can no longer rely on "pickup" firefighters to do the initial attack work on forest fires. Government employee legislation in recent years and the recognition of unions have led us to believe that we should get in line and pay for the premium pay. EXCESS FOREIGN CURRENCIES Senator BIBLE. Very well. You have made your case. Now, I note in your highlight statement a reference to a continued research program carried on with excess foreign currencies. I assume these currencies are purchased with U.S. dollars appropriated to the Agricultural Research Service. Is that a correct statement? Mr. CLIFF. That is correct. If you have questions on that I would like Dr. Arnold to answer. Senator BIBLE. I don't have any questions on that, but just a state ment. What level of funding in American dollars was available to you during the current fiscal year? Mr. CLIFF. These are the 480 funds? Senator BIBLE. Yes. Mr. ARNOLD. The amount of Public Law 480 funds is based on the availability and desirability of letting contracts. I have the figure for 1969. Senator BIBLE. All right. Give us the total. Mr. ARNOLD. $554,000 was budgeted. Senator BIBLE. $554,000 for 1969. How much do you anticipate for fiscal year 1971? Mr. ARNOLD. We will have somewhat less in fiscal year 1970 and we will increase it in fiscal year 1971 probably, about 25 percent. Senator BIBLE. Very well. Provide for the record information concerning the program by country, subject, researching agency and the American dollar equivalent. Mr. ARNOLD. Yes, sir. (The information follows:) Summary of Current Forest Service P. L. 480 Research Projects American Country Subject Dollar Equivalent India Effect of various defects in various sizes on the $41, 343 Pakistan Survey of the diseases of conifers and selected 75, 541 Poland Studies on the role of endogenous growth regulators 77, 897 Poland Symbiotic properties of mycorrhizal fungi of pine. 69,883 Poland Productivity of photosynthesis in forest trees in 94, 837 Poland Differentiation of Xylem. 86,226 Yugoslavia Insect fauna of the forests in Bosina and Herzegovina. 36, 255 Yugoslavia Natural enemies of the elm bark beetles and their JOB CORPS CONSERVATION CENTERS Senator BIBLE. How many of your employees are assigned to the Job Corps Conservation Centers, Chief? Mr. CLIFF. I will ask Deputy Chief Ed Schultz to give you the figures on that, Senator. Mr. SCHULTZ. We have approximately 1,060 permanent people assigned to our Job Corps Centers now. Senator BIBLE. Is that reimbursed from the Job Corps funds? Mr. SCHULTZ. This is reimbursed by Job Corps funds through the Department of Labor. Senator BIBLE. Tell me this. Do the Job Corps Conservation Centers work out pretty well on Forest Service projects? Mr. SCHULTZ. They are working out very well. We are getting quite a bit of extra work done by them. Senator BIBLE. What kind of work? Mr. SCHULTZ. They are doing work on the national forests. For example, in fiscal year 1969 the projects on national forest land had a total value of $9,700,000. Construction and rehabilitation work on the centers was valued at $1,865,000. There was contributed approximately $170,000 to community projects and emergency work. Senator BIBLE. What kind of work? Is that building roads and nature trails, cleanups around centers and cleanup around recreation areas? What type of work do they do? Mr. SCHULTZ. Primarily concentrated on construction of recreation improvements, roads, trails, visitor centers, the types of work in which there is a training opportunity for the enrolees themselves. LOCATION OF CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CENTERS Senator BIBLE. How many Job Corps Conservation Centers are there in operation now today? Mr. SCHULTZ. We have 20. Senator BIBLE. You have 20. Supply for the record where they are located. FOREST SERVICE EMPLOYEE/ENROLLEE RATIO Senator BIBLE. How many participants does that entail? What is the figure? Mr. SCHULTZ. Our 20 centers have a capacity for 3,500 boys and we are operating just a little over that now, about 102 percent. Senator BIBLE. You mean the total capacity is 3,500? Mr. SCHULTZ. Right. Senator BIBLE. But you still use 1,060 Forest Service employees for the 3,500 people that are working in those centers? Mr. SCHULTZ. All of these employees are not working directly with the individual centers. Senator BIBLE. It seems to me that is a pretty high ratio if you have one Government employee for every two men that are working in a center. Mr. SCHULTZ. One of the things that increases the ratio here is that we are also conducting the teaching program with the boys. Senator BIBLE. It seems like a high ratio. Mr. SCHULTZ. It is a high ratio. Mr. CLIFF. Senator, there are some good reasons for this. Mr. CLIFF. These young men are all dropouts. Senator BIBLE. I understand that. Mr. CLIFF. Sixty percent of them are from broken homes, 25 percent of them have had antisocial behavior. We have to have supervision in these centers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We have to have men either supervising them in the classrooms or on the job in the barracks when they are not occupied in training and work projects and it does take a considerable overhead to provide this 24-hour service throughout the year. JOB CORPS GRADUATES Senator BIBLE. All right. That is enough on that. How about the graduates from your Job Corps Conservation Center? How many have graduated since you opened these centers? Mr. SCHULTZ. I would have to supply that for the record. Senator BIBLE. Approximately? Mr. SCHULTZ. I would estimate approximately 21,000. Senator BIBLE. With the 21,000 what has happened to them after they have been graduated? Does somebody follow through on them? Mr. SCHULTZ. Yes. About 72 percent of all the enrollees have been placed either in jobs, the military service, or they have returned to school for further education. Senator BIBLE. As to the number that go on jobs, how many are still on those jobs? Supply that for the record, and also of those that go to school, how many stay? Mr. SCHULTZ. We will have to supply that for the record. (The information follows:) Number of graduates from Civilian Conservation Centers- 21, 400 Number of graduates from Civilian Conservation Centers still on jobs occupied at time of graduation____ 12, 500 Number of enrollees who returned to school for further education___ 2, 200 Number of enrollees who remained in school_- 2,000 |