say that we are all bound to see that it passes over with safety to the peace, and with safety to the institutions of the country; but, at the same time, with good effect, and with success to the reformation of the Church and State. If this House should yield too ready and implicit an obedience to everything that is suggested from the Crown, we may incur the danger of losing the just and necessary reforms we seek to obtain; if, on the contrary, we proceed too rapidly and impatiently in the exercise of our highest prerogatives to alter that which the state of the country and the welfare of the people do not require to be altered, we shall be deeply responsible to our constituents and to posterity for our act. That we may safely steer between these two dangers is my fervent prayer-and I think that if we send to the foot of the Throne the Address, as amended by my noble Friend, stating clearly, but stating respectfully, the Reforms which are required, we shall have done our duty to those constituents and that posterity; and that we shall not deserve either to be reproached with pusillanimous weakness on the one hand, or inconsiderate rashness on the other.

LONDON UNIVERSITY.

March 26, 1835.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that when the right hon. Baronet acknowledged that the claims of the Dissenters to admission to Universities were well grounded, and when he said that those who did not conform to the Church of England should have an opportunity of obtaining academical honours, he wished that the right hon. Baronet had, at the same time, pointed out some way in which the House could have expressed its acquiescence in his opinion. But while the right hon. Baronet allowed the justice of

the claim under consideration, he did not point out any mode by which it could be satisfied. The right hon. Baronet could not say, that the Motion 'took him by surprise.' The notice was sufficiently long before the House, and time enough had been afforded for the production of the Memorial. If it were the opinion of the right hon. Baronet that some better, some more enlarged course should have been adopted, he had had full time for taking the matter into consideration, and for developing the plan which he should recommend the Government to adopt. The present position of the House with regard to this question, he begged to say, was not that in which it stood last year; because the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge having opposed the admission of Dissenters into those two Universities, and having succeeded in their opposition in the other House of Parliament, and having the power, by their rules and regulations, to exclude Dissenters, they thus stood forward and said, that not only should these persons be excluded from the ancient Universities, but that an institution which had been established at the expense of 150,000l., and which was fully capable of teaching learning and the arts, should not have the power of conferring honours and degrees. This was deemed a grievance by the Dissenters, and ought to be remedied. The House had been told by the right hon. Baronet, who had argued the case with ability, that what the Universities objected to was, that the London University should confer the title of master and bachelor of arts. He knew that there was a certain degree of honour attached to these names, and that they conveyed with them the idea of proficiency and skill; but if new names were to be employed in the London University, for the mere purpose of making a distinction between the degrees which were conferred in Oxford and Cambridge, and those which were conferred in London, and if the new names were not to

carry with them the weight attached to the old ones,persons who were prevented from entering into the old Universities would still be deprived of those distinctions to which they were entitled, although they might be able to obtain all the academical honours which could be conferred by the new. The right hon. Baronet and the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade had referred to what had passed on this subject before the Privy Council. He (Lord John Russell) had been present at that Council, and he had heard with attention the arguments of his hon. and learned Friend near him (Dr. Lushington), as well as the hon. and learned Gentleman who had spoken on the part of the ancient Universities. The great objection appeared to him, and he believed all the Council thought so, to be not so much on the part of the two Universities as on the part of the medical schools of London, and he thought that the other schools of London would be entitled to confer medical degrees, if that power was given to the University of London. The Member for Bridport had said, that it would not be desirable to give the London University the power of conferring medical degrees, and the objection which he (Lord John Russell) had just stated was the principal ground of the proposed restriction. On the whole, the matter appeared to be of so much importance, that the Council did not come to an immediate decision. But he was surprised that the right hon. Baronet should have been ignorant of the fact, and should have believed that the Council had done nothing on the subject. Why, Lord Brougham had been employed almost constantly on the subject. A fortnight did not pass without his (Lord John Russell) receiving a communication from his noble and learned Friend on the subject of granting a Charter to the University of London, and how it could be reconciled with other institutions. During the noble and learned Lord's journey into Scotland, he

had been very much employed on this subject, and the noble and learned Lord had sent him a voluminous paper on the question. It was not a matter of ridicule or of scorn that a person of high legal station should occupy himself in advancing literature and science. He could say of Lord Brougham, that whatever were his political or legal pursuits, he (Lord John Russell) never knew a time when that noble and learned Lord did not evince the greatest anxiety for, and was not ready to devote a large portion of his time to, the advancement of science and of art. Then it came to this, that the late Government, and Lord Brougham especially, had been anxiously occupied in considering, first, whether it was possible to obtain the consent of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge to Protestant Dissenters taking degrees in those Universities; secondly, if that failed, whether a charter should be given to the London University, to enable Protestant Dissenters to take degrees therein; and thirdly, whether any other large and combined plan could be devised which should extend to the London University and other schools; and he had not heard from the right hon. Baronet that there was any disposition on the part of Government to pledge itself to introduce a measure which would afford to Protestant Dissenters a prospect of obtaining the literary honours they naturally coveted. He might mention many names of men eminent for learning, though not endowed with rich pluralities, who were gratified by literary honours; he would only mention the name of one such, Dr. Lardner, who, at the end of his life, received a degree from a Scotch University, and acknowledged that it could not but be agreeable to literary men, whatever their religious tenets, to receive an honour of that kind. Protestant Dissenters who dedicated their talents to the fame of their country, and to the promotion of its literature, might, indeed, receive an honour from Scotland; but there should be a

place in England where they might obtain literary honours, although they could not sign the articles of the Church of England. He admitted that there might be some objections to the charter of 1831, and he wished the hon. Member for Truro had omitted some of his observations on it; but still, having no hope afforded him by the right hon. Baronet that Government would adopt any measure on the subject, and having to choose between two alternatives, he should concur in the motion of the hon. Member.

CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT (IRELAND).

Friday, March 27, 1835.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer having asked him the other day as to whether he would give him an outline of the Motion which he (Lord John Russell) meant to make on Monday next, the answer which he would then make was, that he was not prepared to pledge himself to any particular words, or not to vary the terms in which he declared his intention to move; but his present intention was, to move that the House should resolve itself into a Committee, for the purpose of taking into consideration the expediency of applying any of the surplus revenues of the Church of Ireland not required for the spiritual care of the Members of that Church, to the religious and moral instruction of all classes of the community.

CHURCH OF IRELAND.

Monday, March 30, 1835.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL:-I rise fully sensible of the arduous task I have undertaken; but, although I am well aware both of the difficulty of that task, and of the re