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This is not an idea of the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association paying for it, but to get a reduction in the cost of the ticket on the basis of the fact they were using a travel agent and they were trying to get some extra tickets for free because they had a hundred or so. Now I remember this. He was going to try to get it from the broker at a lower charge, and then I could buy it from him. They hired a travel broker and he was to have so many tickets and then they were supposed to have so many reduced tickets. Lippman was trying to get me one of the reduced tickets.

But this was never any indication that I ever, in the 10 years I have been going to this, I have never asked them to pay for my wife, because that is not the thing to do, that is all. It is as simple as that. Mr. LISHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have this April 7, 1969, letter placed in the record.

Mr. Moss. Is there objection?

Mr. SPRINGER. No. With the witness' explanation, it is perfectly all right. If he has any further comment or qualification

Mr. CHESELDINE. I don't know the ramifications of the brokerage and the agreement, or anything else but I do know that they were trying to get some reduced tickets through this broker.

Mr. Moss. We will undertake to clarify that.

Mr. CHESELDINE. What is it, sir?

Mr. Moss. We will undertake to clarify that.

Without objection, the letter will be placed in the record at this point.

(The letter referred to follows:)

Mr. DAVID SMITH,

Thomas McGuire Enterprises, Inc.,
Chicago, Ill.

APRIL 7, 1969.

DEAR MR. SMITH: As regards the free airline tickets that we are entitled to, I should like to remind you that we shall need one for my secretary, Mrs. Lucile Rosen who is planning to leave Washington Dulles Airport on a PanAm flight departing at 10:15 a.m., Tuesday, April 29 and returning on PanAm on a flight departing San Juan at 4:45 Sunday, May 4. Please make a reservation for Mr. Michael Rosen on the same flight, tourist class, and send the bill for Mr. Rosen's portion of the fare to Mrs. Rosen, care of this office. Mr. McCabe promised to have the Americana have a room set aside for the Rosens from Tuesday, April 29, through Sunday morning. We should appreciate your confirming that these arrangements have been taken care of.

In addition, we should like to receive a ticket for Mrs. James Cheseldine, who is now ticketed on PanAm flight 215N departing April 27 from Friendship Airport at 11 a.m. Mr. Cheseldine is Chief Examiner of the Interstate Commerce Commission and one of the guests of the Association. If a ticket can be secured, he will cancel the ticket he now holds or will follow whatever mechanics you suggest. Please have the Americana hold rooms for Mr. and Mrs. Cheseldine for arrival on April 27 and for Richard Block, another guest of the Association, for late arrival on April 27. Mr. Block's flight (Eastern 917 from Newark) arrives in San Juan at 11:24 p.m. on the 27th.

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely,

WILLIAM J. LIPPMAN.

Mr. CHESELDINE. It has nothing to do with a free ticket for my wife.
Mr. LISHMAN. I only have a few questions left, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moss. All right.

Mr. LISHMAN. Prior to attending the conference, did you ask the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association whether they would pick up the

difference between the per diem rate and the actual hotel rate charged at San Juan.

Mr. CHESELDINE. No, sir.

Mr. LISHMAN. I have before me a letter dated May 29, 1969, from Mr. William J. Lippman, addressed to Joseph E. Ludden, Esq. I would like to ask you to read it and indicate whether or not it is correct. Mr. Moss. Page 2 is the portion that refers directly to the hotel bill. Mr. CHESELDINE. This came about because Mr. Lippman was treasurer for his first convention. He has asked me about how it had been handled in the past, about paying for the staff or doing something about the hotel rate. When he asked me, I told him how it had happened at Dallas and at Detroit and a few other places.

Mr. Moss. Will you tell us?

Mr. CHESELDINE. By making a block reservation for, at least in Detroit, making a number of block reservations in the hotel, they set aside a couple of suites at a reduced price. In Dallas, I think they gave us a $30 room but charged us $15 or $16 a day for it. This matter of how it was handled was Mr. Lippman asking me. I didn't ask him. Mr. LISHMAN. I would like to read the sentence.

Mr. CHESELDINE. I know what the sentence says, sir. I just say he called me, I didn't call him.

Mr. LISHMAN. The sentence reads, "Before going to San Juan, Ches," I assume that is Mr. Cheseldine-"asked whether we would pick up the difference between their per diem and the hotel rate, and I indicated that we certainly would."

Now, is it correct that you did ask that question?

Mr. CHESELDINE. I don't say I did. Let us say I don't deny it. I don't think I did. I think it was a conversation just as I reported, because I did not call Mr. Lippman at any time talking about what could be done with respect to the hotel bill, because it had been handled several different ways over the years. They knew that we were on a limited per diem, going to pretty expensive hotels and that we were paying our wives' expenses.

Mr. LISHMAN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have this letter of May 29, 1969, placed in the record.

Mr. Moss. Is there objection?

Mr. SPRINGER. Not with what he said. May I ask counsel a question? Is there a contention that there was a difference, or did he pay the full rate? Is $33.17 the regular going rate?

Mr. CHESELDINE. $33 was the going rate as I understood it.

Mr. SPRINGER. Is there a contention that somehow or other he did not pay the full rate?

Mr. LISHMAN. No. There is the contention that this is an indication of the acceptance or an attempt to obtain a favor or gratuity which in turn was violative of the canons of conduct.

Mr. SPRINGER. I wanted to be sure that we understood.
Mr. Moss. The item will be included in the record.
(The letter referred to follows:)

MAY 29, 1969.

JOSEPH E. LUDDEN, Esq.,

Gateway Transportation Co., Inc.,

LaCrosse, Wis.

DEAR JOE: The reason I haven't acknowledged your letter of May 15 sooner is because I have been in Boise and Atlanta on the hearing circuit during the past two weeks.

We were sorry that we missed you Sunday morning. We enjoyed the luxury of sleeping in fairly late and relaxed until plane time. The only untoward development on Sunday was that our good friends Des and Dave apparently forgot to reconfirm our departure flight. We arrived at the airport at 4:15 p.m. for our 4:45 flight on PanAm only to discover that because of a schedule change, our plane had left at 3 p.m. I am sure you can imagine that Des at that point in time was not exactly our favorite travel agent. Fortunately, we were able to catch an Eastern flight to Baltimore departing at 5:30 so we encountered no great hardship.

As regards the conference, I agree that our committee need make no apologies to anyone for the job that was done. I have heard nary a complaint and nothing but effusive thanks for a great time have been pouring in. Your kind words notwithstanding, you and Lyn deserve the lion's share of the credit for the success of the conference. Dolly and I felt honored to have the opportunity to work with you both and it is an experience that we shall long cherish. Let's resolve to relax together in Scottsdale.

Ches reports that Jamaica was very pleasant. I am sorry we were unable to follow the tour. Incidentally, I have received a check from Dick Block in payment of his hotel room and received a call from Bert Stillwell insisting that he wanted to pay for his hotel room and a doctor bill which was apparently charged to the MCLA account. I have received no such call from Ches. Bert reports that all ICC staff people have received $27 overseas per diem which should pay for the hotel room. Before going to San Juan, Ches asked whether we would pick up the difference between their per diem and the hotel rate and I indicated that we certainly would. Have you had any discussions with him or reached any other understanding? Until we get the Americana bill, we won't be in any position to settle the matter. I feel that Ches must know that the others have paid or offered to pay their hotel bill and will probably be disposed to do the same. On the other hand, I am reluctant to ask for the money or to suggest that he should pay. It is a delicate matter and we should give it some thought before we proceed. Your thoughts on the matter are respectfully solicited. Please convey our love and thanks to Lyn. Warmest regards,

Sincerely,

WILLIAM J. LIPPMAN.

P.S.-The enclosed photograph of you and Van Smith looks very suggestive. You better not show it to Lyn.

W. J. L.

Mr. Moss. I find now that I am confused. Does this letter refer to the bill from the Americana at San Juan, the bill that is being mentioned on page 2 of the letter from Mr. Lippman to Joseph E. Ludden, Esq., of Gateway Transportation Co., Inc., of May 29, 1969? That is page 2:

Ches reports that Jamaica was very pleasant. I am sorry we were unable to follow the tour. Incidentally, I have received a check from Dick Block in payment of his hotel room and received a call from Bert Stillwell insisting that he wanted to pay for his hotel room and a doctor bill which was apparently charged to the MCLA account. I have received no such call from Ches. Bert reports that all ICC staff people have received $27 overseas per diem which should pay for the hotel room. Before going to San Juan, Ches asked whether we would pick up the difference between their per diem and the hotel rate and I indicated that we certainly would. Have you had any discussion with him or reached any other understanding? Until we get the Americana bill, we won't be in any position to settle the matter. I feel that Ches must know that the others have paid or offered to pay their hotel bill and will probably be disposed to do the same. On the other hand, I am reluctant to ask for the money or to

suggest that he should pay. It is a delicate matter and we should give it some thought before we proceed. Your thoughts on the matter are respectfully solicited.

Is that a discussion of this bill?

Mr. CHESELDINE. You mean the hotel bill?

Mr. Moss. Yes.

Mr. CHESELDINE. No, sir. This is subsequent to the Joe Ludden and Lippman were the men in charge of the San Juan conference.

Mr. Moss. I realize that.

Mr. CHESELDINE. After it was over, Lippman asked me about whether they should contribute part of it because of the high price of it. This was a month later, this Joe Ludden letter, and apparently they were getting together to see what they were going to do. I had made no request for it. I told him what they had done in the past.

Mr. Moss. In the past when you went to these conventions the Motor Carriers would pick up the difference between your allowance and the actual cost to you of the hotel facilities?

Mr. CHESELDINE. Yes, sir; something close to that. They were to reduce it to $14, $15, $16. Of course, there were other costs but we paid those ourselves. But they reduced the price down to what they call the Government rate.

Mr. Moss. In other words, you paid whatever the governmental allowance was and they paid the difference?

Mr. CHESELDINE. Something along that line; yes, sir.

Mr. Moss. Then prior to going to San Juan, you discussed withLippman said, "Before going to San Juan Ches asked whether we would pick up the difference between their per diem and the hotel rate, and I indicated"-therefore you were discussing it with Lippman? Mr. CHESELDINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moss (continuing). "That I certainly would." Did he so indicate?

Mr. CHESELDINE. He so indicated, but he didn't do it, which is perfectly all right.

Mr. Moss. He indicates here that he has not done it (1) because he apparently had not received a check from you. The wording is somewhat ambiguous, or he had not received this bill from the Americana yet to determine what the difference would be so that he could reimburse you. And this bill is ambiguous, because it says "Transfer to M/M" which I would assume is the Motor Carriers Association. Mr. SMETHURST. May I clarify that, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. Moss. Yes.

Mr. SMETHURST. The records of the Americana Hotel show that for the three staff personnel of the ICC-that would be Mr. Block,

Mr. Stillwell, and Mr. Cheseldine as well as, I believe, two Commissioners, Chairman Brown and one other, I am not certain-that their five bills were to have been transferred to the master account of the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association. Now there was confusion on the date that these individuals checked out. The bills of Mr. Stillwell and Mr. Block were transferred to the master account and paid by the association. Both of these gentlemen later reimbursed the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association for those bills.

The bills of Mrs. Brown and Mr. Cheseldine and the other Commissioner were to have been handled the same way, but they paid their bills at the time they checked out. The association later attempted to reimburse Mrs. Brown for that amount and she sent the check back with thanks, declined it with thanks.

There was no indication in the file that the association had attempted to reimburse Mr. Cheseldine for any expenses.

Mr. Moss. They did not, then, reimburse you on this occasion? Mr. CHESELDINE. No, sir. I might add that Mr. Stillwell was sick. That is the reason he did not pay on the way out. He left a little early because he had an attack, some bite he had or something.

Mr. Moss. The fact is, then, that the previous practice was to have the Motor Carriers pick up the difference between the per diem allowed by the Government and the actual billing by the hotel? Mr. CHESELDINE. That is right, in most instances.

Mr. Moss. You may continue.

Mr. LISHMAN. Mr. Cheseldine, the records of the Commission reflect that you attended the annual conference of the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association held in Detroit May 1 to May 4, 1968. Is that

correct?

Mr. CHESELDINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LISHMAN. The voucher for this trip shows that you traveled by personally owned automobile, taking annual leave for the excess traveltime. Your constructed traveltime for per diem purposes amounted to 5 days, April 30 to May 4, for which you claimed per diem allowance in the amount of $80.

I would like to have the voucher showing this presented to you and then ask to have it placed in the record.

Mr. Moss. Is there objection?

Mr. SPRINGER. No objection.

Mr. Moss. Hearing none, it is now in the record. (The voucher referred to follows:)

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