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the requirement for the production of originals of the material for the
period January 1, 1966, to January 1, 1968, as set forth in items 1 and
2 of the subpena.
(The letter referred to follows:)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE
COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE,

Washington, D.C., July 6, 1970.
Mr. H. NEIL GARSON,
Silver Spring, Md.

DEAR MR. GARSON : Reference is made to the subcommittee subpoena dated June 29, 1970, served on you June 30, 1970, with return date on July 9, 1970 at Room 2323 Rayburn House Office Building at the hour of 10:00 AM.

I am informed that it will be difficult if not impossible for you to produce all the original papers and documents called for in the subpoena on July 9, 1970; that this difficulty is enhanced by the fact that you have commitments in the near future to go on both military service and a scheduled trip outside the country.

On the basis of this information and to accommodate your commitments so far as reasonably possible, I hereby notify you that the requirement you furnish 01 July 9, 1970 the documents described in Item 3 of the subpoena is suspended. I will advise you later of the date when the subcommittee may require production of these records.

With respect to Items 1 and 2 of the subpoena, it will be necessary for you to produce on July 9, 1970 all the originals of the material therein described for the period January 1, 1968 to May 31, 1970. So far as producing originals of the material for the period January 1, 1966 to January 1, 1968, a decision will be made by the subcommittee as to the necessity for the production of same at a later date. Sincerely yours,

HARLEY O. STAGGERS, Chairman. Mr. MACDONALD. Rule 11 of the House of Representatives charges the Commerce Committee with responsibility for legislation having to do with the regulation of interstate and foreign commerce. Section 136 of the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946 directs the committee to exercise continuous watchfulness over the execution by the administrative agencies of any laws within their respective jurisdiction. And, of course, the ICC is one of such agencies.

House Resolution 116, 91st Congress, authorizes this subcommittee to conduct investigations and studies of transportation and interstate commerce matters and to require by subpena “the attendance and testimony of such witnesses and the production of such books, records, correspondence, memorandums, papers, and documents, as it deems necessary."

The subpena served on the witness Garson was pursuant to the above rule, statute, and resolution.

Mr. Garson, you have already appeared and been sworn as a witness before this subcommittee so that the testimony you now give will be received under your oath as a witness.

Do you have a copy of the subpena dated June 29, 1970, before you?

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF H. NEIL GARSON, SECRETARY, INTER

STATE COMMERCE COMMISSION; ACCOMPANIED BY ROBERT L.
OSWALD, CONGRESSIONAL LIAISON OFFICER; AND JOSEPH M.
HARRINGTON, ACTING ASSISTANT
Mr. GARSON. Yes, sir; I do have.

Mr. MACDONALD. Was this subpena served upon you on June 30, 1970, and is this a copy of the same subpena which I have already inserted in the record ?

Mr. GARSON. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman, very briefly, I understand that the rules of the House require that a copy of the rules of the committee be made available.

Mr. LISHMAN. The rules have already been made available.
Mr. GARSON. No; I was not given a copy of the rules.

Mr. DINGELL. It would seem a very simple matter for the staff to give him a copy of the rules.

Mr. LISHMAN. It is my understanding that at a preceding hearing, copies of the rules were on the table, available for the witness.

Mr. DINGELL. It will be a simple matter to give them to him.

Mr. LISHMAN. We will see, however, that copies are now given to Mr. Garson.

Mr. MACDONALD. Do you feel at a disadvantage because you do not have a copy?

Mr. GARSON. Well, it would have been very helpful to have had the rules available.

Mr. MACDONALD. We will see that you do have it.

Mr. GARSON. I appreciate that. On the other hand, I do have a statement to make and I would like to be given an opportunity to make it.

Mr. MACDONALD. All in due time.
Off the record.
(Off-the-record discussion.)

Mr. MACDONALD. Do you have with you a letter dated July 6, 19:11 signed by the chairman of this subcommittee and addressed to you! Mr. GARSON. Yes; I do.

Mr. MACDONALD. Wherein certain of the requirements of the J... 29, 1970, subpena are suspended temporarily!

Mr. GARSON. I have that.

Mr. MACDONALD. Have you brought with you all of the day described in items 1 and 2 of the subpena for the period II 1, 1968 to May 31, 1970 ?

Mr. Garson. To the extent that I have originals, I hara'
them. On the other hand, where I do not have originals by
originals were sent elsewhere, I have copies and copies :
attached to my statement in the form of appendixes. In
have some other documents to submit which are copies,
all that I have. I brought everything that I do have in mi

Mr. MACDONALD. The subcommittee thanks you.

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(Off-the-record discussion.)

Mr. DINGELL. I believe the record should indicate that the witness has received a copy of the rules of the committee, pursuant to House rules, which are now in his hands, and I think the record should so indicate, in the interest of having a correct record.

Mr. MACDONALD. We are on the record. My remarks will be confined to merely asking you why you think you should be heard at this time and asking counsel why he thinks you should not be heard.

Mr. Rogers ?

Mr. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, before we proceed, from what I had understood, we were calling this meeting simply to receive the papers from the subpena, which would then give the staff an opportunity to go over these to see if it justified continued investigation. I wonder if we are not somewhat premature in doing anything more than that at this time, because if then we go into it, it would certainly be appropriate if he wants, I presume, to make any statement he might desire.

Mr. Harvey. If the gentleman would yield-
Mr. Rogers. Yes.

Mr. HARVEY. As the witness has said, he delivered around to each of our offices this morning copies of the documents and so forth and this statement. He has indicated in his statement that here is a man about to go into the Army, is that correct?

Mr. GARSON. That is right, on Sunday,
Mr. ROGERS. For how long?
Mr. HARVEY. For a good many months-is that it?

Mr. GARSON. For 2 weeks. But then I have scheduled a vacation. I am planning to go to Europe for at least 17 days.

Mr. MACDONALD. If I could interrupt both my colleagues, I think your statement as to why you think you should he heard is timely and I think it is certainly timely to hear the cour ol say why in his opinion you should not be heard at this time. So if you will proceed, I think it will save time.

Mr. DINGELL. Could I intrude into the proceedings just very briefly? Mr. MACDONALD. Mr. Dingell.

Mr. DINGELL. I have a feeling, without any other facts, that we were convened simply to receive papers, that it may be in your interest to defer any hearing at this time, simply to submit the papers as required, and I have the feeling that your best interests would be served by having an understanding with this committee, which I am sure our chairman would give you, that you may be heard at a time later in such fashion as you would feel appropriate and would deal with relevant matters.

Mr. HARVEY. Would the gentleman yield to me again for a comment? Mr. DINGELL. I would be happy to yield.

Mr. Harvey. I would want to agree with my colleague from Michigan, because although I have had an opportunity only to make a cursory reading, it seems to me you should have an opportunity to answer publicly what was said at the last hearing, with the press present, in which you were much maligned, and it would seem to me you would want another chance to be heard with the press present. I have gone through them very quickly, but it seems to me you have very well answered those charges indeed and it seems to me you would want the press present when you have another chance.

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Mr. DINGELL. I wish to reiterate, I think you have a right to be heard. I think you have heard the comment from our colleague from Michigan and the chairman. You are a free man and this committee is interested in being fair to you. But I have the strong feeling that your best interests would not be served at this time by being heard, simply to submit the documents and then be heard later.

Mr. GARSON. Well, if I may speak to this point, I will defer to the statements made by the committee. I do feel that I should have an opportunity to make an appearance to give

Mr. DINGELL. I am sure that right is going to be given to you.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I wanted to ask Mr. Harvey. You said something was delivered to your office this morning?

Mr. Harvey. I got these documents. I thought they were delivered to everybody's office.

Weren't they?

Mr. Garson. They were supposed to have been delivered this morning by our congressional liaison staff to every member of the committee. It may be that he was a little late in getting around.

Mr. MACDONALD. In any event, why don't you proceed with your statement, then counsel will be heard, then we will make a ruling.

Mr. GARSON. What I wanted to state is this: I will defer to the wishes of the committee. I am prepared simply to submit the statement that I have prepared and the documents for the record. In addition, I will want to submit for the record the other material that I have here which were too bulky to include as part of my statement.

The only thing that I do not have a copy of that was not appended to my statement is something that came in today, which is an affidavit from Mr. Robert Schuler of the Motor Carrier Lawyers Association, in which he expressly certifies that no honorariums were paid to me on my attendanon at the meeting in Detroit in 1968. I would like to offer that also as part of the statements.

Mr. MACDONALD. Could you identify the other material that you have in front of you that you want to put into the record ?

Mr. Garson. Yes, I should like very much to identify the material that I have.

Mr. MACDONALD. Would you identify them?
Mr. GARSON. Yes.

Mr. Rogers. If the Chair would permit, I think he should identify the materials from the subpena. I think if he is going to make a statement or submit a statement, I think it should be made orally before the committee, because we may want to question. This is an investigation. It seems to me to begin

Mr. MACDONALD. I do not want to interrupt vou. You and I am thinking along the same channels completely. But I think for the record, the matters that he had referred to should be identified. There will be later a ruling whether or not it is proper at this time to have a statement, as has been said. I also agree with the two gentlemen from Michigan that perhaps it is to your advantage not to pursue your desire to be heard today. Maybe in 2 weeks, 3 weeks, when you are back here, this is an investigation and we want to protect the rights of all parties, including the rights of the committee. It is the understand

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ing of the subcommittee that this meeting this morning was to be rather informal to receive the material which you have just referred to and then call you back at an open meeting at a different time. I think any arguments back and forth at this time are premature.

So if you would identify what you want to put in the record at this point, I think it would be very helpful.

Mr. Garson. All right, sir.

First of all, I have a main statement to which is attached 19 appendices, these appendices consist of documents referring to my travel as well as to the work that I have been doing as Secretary of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Mr. MACDONALD. In the interest of clarity, would you care to have that marked as exhibit A?

Mr. GARSON. This will be exhibit A.

Mr. MACDONALD. Without objection, it is received by the committee and inserted in the record at this point.

(See Appendix R, p. 862.)

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Chairman, at that point, could I make an observation to the witness that if he is introducing his statement right now, he certainly should be assured that he has a chance to give that statement when the press is present. That is my point.

Mr. MACDONALD. My point is that it is his choice and I will have to make a ruling eventually whether he can make the statement today or not.

Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman, I observe again, and this is in line with comments made earlier and also in line with my previous remarks and remarks made by my friend from Michigan, that again we are getting into this business of submitting a statement. Mr. Rogers has stated that he feels any statement made should be made orally. I concurin that.

Mr. MACDONALD. I am deferring to counsel. I would like counsel to say on the record whether he feels that is true. I would like him to give his reasons after this gentleman gives his reasons why he wants to be heard today.

Proceed.

Mr. GARSON. I want to direct the committee's attention to several of the documents which I am submitting as evidence here.

Appendix 10, which is a letter from the executive secretary of the Movers and Warehousemen's Association of America, Inc., dated June 22, 1970. It is by Carroll F. Genovese, which explains fully the matter that was taken up at the hearing last time, the matter of my trip to San Juan, P.R.

There is one other item here that I think deserves attention by the committee. My records, my financial records were reviewed by the Interstate Commerce Commission, by the Acting Managing Director.

Mr. MACDONALD. If I could interrupt the witness, I am in sort of a never-never land here, because I am accepting exhibits. But you are describing them as statements, really. If you are just identifying them, they will go in the record so we all have a chance to look at them when the record is printed.

Mr. LIBHman. Mr. Chairman, as counsel, I think I have a right to be heard at this point.

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