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Mr. Moss. So you invited her to be toastmaster, but you did not provide any compensation at all for her other than the payment of her hotel bill?

Mr. GENOVESE. That is correct.

Mr. Moss. So you did depart from the custom of not having a speaker pay their own transportation expenses in the case of Dr. Helen Garson?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. You did not depart from that custom in the case of Mr. Neil Garson, you did pay his transportation expenses ?

Mr. GENOVESE. We did not pay his transportation expenses.
Mr. Moss. You paid his hotel expenses?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. You say the reason that you did not want to depart from the custom is—isn't it true, however, that at the time of leaving the hotel Mr. Garson had the clear option in signing the bill of paying if he had desired to do so?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. And there is not a thing that you could have done about that?

Mr. GENOVESE. No.

Mr. Moss. But he did not make that election; he signed it, and it was noted that it was then billed to your association?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. And that was in March?
Mr. GENOVESE. March 27.

Mr. Moss. And he suddenly became excited in mid-November, 7 months later, and wanted you to change your policy and accept a check?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. That is what he proffered the check for?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. And you consulted with counsel and determined that it would be disadvantageous to the association to reverse previous policy, and you returned the check, is that correct?

Mr. GENOVESE. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. Moss. Then you say you accepted on or about the 7th of January 1970 the same check or another check?

Mr. GENOVESE. It was another check, I am sure.

Mr. Moss. Upon what do you base that conclusion, since it bore the same number and the same date?

Mr. GENOVESE. It bore the same date. I do not know whether it bore the same number or not.

Mr. Moss. Let me assure you that it did. And that is what puzzles me, as to how you would know it was a replacement check. Did he tell you that it was a replacement check, a different check?

Mr. GENOVESE. I do not recall, sir.
Mr. Moss. You do not recall!
Mr. GENOVESE. No, sir.

Mr. Moss. But somehow you concluded that it was, even though it had the same number and the same date?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. Didn't it strike you as being odd that in November or January of 1970 that a check dated November 18, 1969, would be offered to you in payment of a bill?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes; I would assume so.
Mr. Moss. It did strike you as being odd?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. And did you inquire of Mr. Garson why he was so insistent on this?

Mr. GENOVESE. No; I did not, sir.

Mr. Moss. Did Mr. Garson volunteer the fact that a committee of the Congress was very carefully looking at the records, the records of the Commission, and had been for some period of time, and that he wanted to get this matter reimbursed promptly or he would be in a spot?

Mr. GENOVESE. I think I was aware of that, yes.
Mr. Moss. But who made you aware? Did he make you aware of it!
Mr. GENOVESE. I think at that time members of the staff had visited

me.

Mr. Moss. But they had visited you not to get just one item of information, but a variety of information, didn't they?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. You used the term here "in the meantime Mr. Garson repeatedly insisted that I deposit the check.” This was following his presentation in January. And you did not cash it or deposit it until April?

Mr. GENOVESE. That is correct. Mr. Moss. And he repeatedly insisted-he entreated you to do so, didn't he?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. And he told you in effect that if you did not do so that he was going to be in trouble, is that correct?

Mr. GENOVESE. I am sure of that, yes. Mr. Moss. Counsel may proceed. Mr. MANELLI. I have only one other question you have not asked, Mr. Chairman.

In the last paragraph of your statement, on the first page there, you state that Mr. Garson repeatedly asked you for the amount of the hotel bill so that he could reimburse you. And you state, “I had not done so”—meaning that you had not submitted a copy of the bill“because we do not follow that practice for any of our speakers.”

And you go on to say that you did not want to establish a precedent. But finally you say "Mr. Garson insisted that I accept payment for the expenses and delivered to me a check in the amount of $229.75"which is the exact amount of the hotel bill. Is it correct to infer that you did, sometime before he gave you the check, tell him what the bill was?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. MANELLI. Having first of all declined to tell him the amount of the bill because you did not want to take his payment, and then having changed your mind and finally told him what the bill was, why did you not then take the check? It would seem that in telling him what the bill was you were in effect changing your mind about receiving the payment.

Mr. GENOVESE. I think at that time I had consulted with Mr. Burstein. And he suggested that I not accept payment for the hotel bill, that they were entitled to the hotel payment because of the voluntary aspects of him and his wife attending the meeting.

Mr. MANELLI. Your statement, though, says that repeatedly or several times between March, the time of the convention, and November 18, he asked to reimburse you. And then it says that on or about November 18 he called and asked you to submit the bill so that he could reimburse you. And you said, “I had not done so because we do not follow that practice”—which means, I take it, that he had asked but you had not done so before November 18, you had not given him the amount of his charges. But since you did give him the amount of the bill, you did provide him with the charges, my question was

Mr. Moss. Did you provide him with the charges?

Mr. MANELLI. You answered my question before that you finally told him how much his bill was.

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes. Mr. MANELLI. You did tell him that? Mr. GENOVESE. Yes. Mr. MANELLI. Having told him then, why didn't you finally take his check? Was it because Mr. Burstein told you that it would be a bad precedent?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. Does it have anything to do with the manner of keeping your records also? Do you have them on a quarterly basis, annual basis? How do you keep your records?

Mr. GENOVESE. It is done on a quarterly basis.
Mr. Moss. It is on a quarterly basis!
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes.

Mr. Moss. So you envisioned some difficulties in handling this matter in your own books?

Mr. GENOVESE. That is correct. Mr. Moss. And it would probably constitute miscellaneous income, which would have to be treated for tax purposes in a more complicated manner than if it had been paid concurrent with the original issuance of the bill, is that correct?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir; that could have been one of the reasons. As a matter of fact, that particular payment had been made months before that.

Mr. Moss. I would assume that you paid the hotel bill from the association very promptly?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. Probably back in March or April ?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes; at least by April anyway.

Mr. MANELLI. One more question. At the very bottom of the first page when you state that on November 18 he insisted that you accept payment, and delivered a check to you, can you recall now how it is that-how you can establish that date as November 18? Are you positive that that was the date that he gave you a check?

Mr. GENOVESE. I recall that he left the check in my absence on or about that date.

Mr. MANELLI. In your absence. So you were not really there when he physically delivered the check!

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Mr. GENOVESE. That is correct. Mr. MANELLI. Your statement says, though, that “On November 18 Mr. Garson insisted that I accept payment and delivered to me a check in the amount of $229.75.” Now, from what you are saying now, actually this is not quite correct, then, because you say you were absent?

Mr. GENOVESE. I was at lunch the date he came to visit me, and I think he left an envelope on my desk with the check in it.

Mr. MANELLI. And he also talked to you on the phone or in person and insisted that you take the payment?

Mr. GENOVESE. That is right.

Mr. MANELLI. Again, how can you be certain, or in what way are you certain that this was November 18! How have you been able to fix that date precisely, do you recall? Do you have any office record of that, or is there some record you referred to when you made this statement up in June? When you had it prepared how were you able to recall that it was November 18 !

Mr. GENOVESE. By the fact that the check was dated November 18, I would assume. It could have been the day after that, or the day before, I do not recall. But it was somewhere on or about the November 18 date.

Mr. MANELLI. We are talking about the original check. This is the one which was supposedly delivered and then later destroyed, the one that the replacement check was meant to cover. This was the one that you had and your statement says you returned to him. Now, my question is, you state here that he delivered a check to you on November 18. I am asking whether there is any record or any way that you can be certain that was November 18. And your answer, I take it, is that you are not certain, you are just assuming because the check was dated!

Mr. GENOVESE. I am not certain; no.

Mr. MANELLI. Is there any record that you could check so that you would verify whether this was November 18?

Mr. GENOVESE. I do not think so. Mr. MANELLI. Did you check any records or notations on June 22 of this year when you prepared this statement? Or was it just on the basis of your assumption that the check bore that date?

Mr. GENOVESE. I am sure that was the only record that I have, the fact that the date on the check was November 18.

Mr. Moss. Mr. Genovese, is it possible that in preparing this statement you consulted with Mr. Neil Garson?

Mr. GENOVESE. In preparing this statement ? No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Moss. You did not consult with him as to the content !
Mr. GENOVESE. No,sir.

Mr. Moss. And it reflects in no manner suggestions made by Mr.
Garson as to the form or content of the statement ?

Mr. GENOVESE. Absolutely not.

Mr. Moss. You state that “I thereupon returned the check to Mr.
Garson and considered the matter closed."

When did you return it, and how?
Mr. GENOVESE. I returned it by mail.
Mr. Moss. And mailed it to Mr. Garson !
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moss. And do you have any contemporaneous record of that return ?

Mr. GENOVESE. No, I do not.

Mr. Moss. And you considered it closed.

And then you said, "Finally on or about January 17, 1970.” Did this pattern of requesting that you accept payment continue in the intervening time, or was there a period where it was quiet and then resumed by Mr. Garson?

Mr. GENOVESE. I would say this was a period of quiet in this interim period.

Mr. Moss. And in January he started to contact you again—or in December? Was it in January or December?

Mr. GENOVESE. I would say in the middle of December, December 12, 13—I think it was after Mr. Rebein and Mr. Smethurst had come into my office.

Mr. Moss. And did he make this contact by telephone, or did he call on you personally? Then you would want to modify your statement on the last sentence, the bottom of the first page: "However, on November 18, 1969, Mr. Garson insisted that I accept payment for the expenses, and delivered to me a check in the amount of $229.75."

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes; I guess that is correct, sir.

Mr. Moss. I would want you to be very certain. I would not want to have the record reflect that it was my suggestion, you say you want to do it. Do you?

Mr. GENOVESE. I want to correct that, if that would infer that it was handed to me personally,

Mr. Moss. I think "being delivered to me” is different from "being delivered to my office."

Mr. GENOVESE. I think that should be reflected as being left in my office, because it was not handed to me personally.

Mr. Moss. And it was returned by you?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Moss. Now, was the replacement delivered to you personally?

Mr. GENOVESE. I do not recall whether it was delivered to me in person or not. It seems to me, however, that it was.

Mr. Moss. By Mr. Garson?
Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MANELLI. Mr. Burstein called you and asked you to prepare this statement. Did you discuss the content of the statement with him at the time?

Mr. GENOVESE. Yes, I did. Mr. MANELLI. And did he either provide the dates or did you discuss with him the dates to refresh your recollection? How can you arrive at these dates that are—well, November 18 is mentioned several times, and January 2—were these all reconstructed on April 7, the date of the cashing of the check, were these all reconstructed at your end when you prepared the statement, or did you discuss the content with Mr. Burstein and arrive at the dates?

Mr. GENOVESE. I think I arrived at the dates, Mr. Counsel, yes, sir.

Mr. Moss. There is a further item. How did you determine that the deposit of the check was made on April 7 of 1970?

Mr. GENOVESE. You asked me how I determined the date of April 7? Mr. Moss. That it was deposited on April 7.

Mr. GENOVESE. After I had received the check finally from Mr. Garson I sent it to Mr. Burstein. And I have a letter here with my transmittal. And I asked Mr. Burstein to hold the check in his custody. And

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