Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Wood, do you meet with the other stations six or eight times a year on policy?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir. I don't have my calendar with me, but Mr. Schneider's characterization is essentially correct.

Mr. SPRINGER. How many times do you talk with them on the telephone? Daily or weekly?

Mr. Wood. Daily.

Mr. SPRINGER. With all stations?

Mr. WOOD. With all the company-owned stations.
Mr. SPRINGER. You talk with them every day?

Mr. WOOD. Every day.

Mr. SPRINGER. All five of them?

Mr. WOOD. Well

Mr. SPRINGER. I am just asking essentially

Mr. WOOD. I think what you are after is the extent of the exchange. I think it could be reduced to one word. It is constant. It is on-going. Mr. SPRINGER. That is what I want to know. In this, you talk over, do you, all the facets of management and what they are doing on the station, meeting their daily problems?

Mr. WOOD. As Dr. Stanton previously indicated, the firing line responsibilities of the operations of each of our stations falls into the hands of the managers. Each of the stations, of course, will have different kinds of problems.

So, it would depend, in large part, on what station I was talking with, as to the kind of problems we may be discussing. I think I have answered your question.

Mr. SPRINGER. Let me ask you this: I know you don't keep in touch daily with the newsmen, but are you in touch with the manager who is in touch with the newsmen on approximately what is going on in this station?

Mr. WOOD. Indeed.

Mr. SPRINGER. That is your testimony as the manager of these five stations; is that correct?

Mr. Wood. That would be correct.

Mr. SPRINGER. Just to sum this up, is there anything else you want to add in any way, or that you can contribute, as to the management and responsibility of CBS for these stations?

Mr. WOOD. I would only say that we take our responsibilities very seriously. We believe we manage our stations with very conscientious effort.

Mr. SPRINGER. Let me ask you this, as I think it is important also: Do you have a manager for all of these five stations on news alone?

Mr. Wood. Each of our stations has a vice president and general manager whose sole responsibility is that station, and under each of our vice presidents and general managers there is a director of news at each of the five company stations.

Mr. SPRINGER. Do you also have a vice president in charge of news or a manager in charge of news for CBS?

Mr. WOOD. No.

Mr. SPRINGER. In other words, you don't have liaison of news to news. What you have is general manager and vice president of WBBM; is that correct?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. SPRINGER. I just want to be sure I had the structure on how this takes place.

Did you have something further?

Mr. STANTON. Mr. Schneider, the president of the CBS/Broadcast Group, was at one time one of the general managers; he was the general manager of our Philadelphia station, later general manager of WCBS-TV, New York. And Mr. Wood, the president of the CBS Television Stations Division, was at one time general manager of KNXT, Los Angeles. When they speak to you of how things operate, they speak from a rich background as general managers.

Mr. SPRINGER. Is there anything that anybody has to contribute to this, whether it is asked for or not? If you want to do it in writing, I hope you will, because this is a fundamental problem involved in these hearings. I wanted to be sure I knew how CBS operated and how you kept in contact with your stations.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moss.

Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, I would ask Mr. S. Arnold Smith, legal counsel for the subcommittee, to be sworn at this point.

The CHAIRMAN. For just a question?

Mr. Moss. Just for establishing the validity of a document.
The CHAIRMAN. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. SMITH. I do.

TESTIMONY OF S. ARNOLD SMITH, STAFF ATTORNEY, SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS, COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Mr. Moss. Mr. Smith, you are a member of the legal staff of the Special Investigations Subcommittee of the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce?

Mr. SMITH. That is correct.

Mr. Moss. And you have examined the document I now hold in my hand.

Is this an accurate reflection of telephone conversations you held with the persons I will name in the course of some questions I propose asking?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you come and take a look at this so you know what you are talking about?

(The witness complied with the chairman's request.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the same document?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moss. You did then phone a series of stations representing both independent and wholly owned network stations to ascertain the policy followed by those stations in retaining outages from film shot for the purpose of news programs; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Moss. And you did telephone a CBS owned and operated station with the call letters KNXT in Los Angeles, Calif.?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is also correct.

Mr. Moss. There you talked with Miss Lorrain Hillman, secretary to Mr. Walter E. Butterfield, manager of the film library?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir, and also with Mr. Albert Greenstein, who, I understand, is a member of the film library staff at that particular

station.

Mr. Moss. And what did they state?

Mr. SMITH. Both Miss Hillman and Mr. Greenstein stated to me. that there is a CBS news policy which directs that the O. & O. station maintain all film outages permanently. I asked Miss Hillman and Mr. Greenstein if this policy was in directive form or merely an oral pronouncement. Neither could state conclusively whether it was either. Both stated they were aware that this was a very definite policy of CBS news that outages be kept permanently.

Mr. Moss. In response, Dr. Stanton, to your question, which is one that should be appropriately answered, these following stations were called, wholly owned CBS stations, and the following individuals talked with:

WCBS-TV, New York City: According to Neil Waldman of the film library, such outages are maintained for at least 3 months.

WCAU, Philadelphia: According to Joseph C. Daley, producer of the 6 p.m. big news program, such outages are retained for 2 to 3 weeks. KMOX, St. Louis: According to Mrs. Pam Kaegel, news secretary, such film is maintained for approximately 1 week but never destroyed in less time.

You have already heard the statement as to the policy that was conveyed to a representative of the staff of this subcommittee. I think you will certainly share with me a feeling of some confusion as to whether or not there is a policy.

I think this point now requires clarification. Maybe Mr. Wood can clarify it. Mr. Schneider is head of the broadcast group and he might be able to shed some light on it.

Do you have a policy?

Mr. SCHNEIDER. I am sorry, sir; there is no such policy that cuts across the five owned stations as to what is done with outcuts, or outages as we are referring to them today.

The retention of outcuts is a matter for the local station. We do use that news judgment in determinations of their retention, and I must say that that news judgment perhaps on occasion is even tempered by the amount of storage space that is available at an individual station. Mr. Moss. I recognize the practical impossibility of retaining all outages.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. The difficulty of storing film and the unevenness of the facilities from station to station would have considerable to do with why the various stations apparently hold film for different lengths of time.

Mr. Moss. The KNXT comment does not, in fact, reflect the policy of CBS?

Mr. SCHNEIDER. I don't know how it could reflect a policy that doesn't exist, sir.

Mr. Moss. I merely asked if it did not reflect the policy.

Mr. STANTON. I do not blame you for being confused on the basis

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of that report. I think your question is wholly proper. But we do not have a uniform policy across the board.

Mr. Moss. I think it might be interesting to note that WRC-TV retains such outages permanently, according to C. J. Dwinell. This is a National Broadcasting Co.-owned station.

And the locally owned ABC station, WMAL, retains outages at least 1 month, and many permanently.

WTTG, owned by Metromedia, states that such outages, according to news director Ed Turner, are retained permanently.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Mr. Moss, this indicates to me the wide disparity of retention.

Mr. Moss. It indicates to me a wide disparity in retention.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. It indicates to me that perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the term "outage." I cannot conceive any television station retaining all outcuts, overshoots, or any of the other trade terms we apply. There can be a great deal of film, for example, improperly exposed or subsequently improperly developed that I can't see retaining.

Mr. Moss. The question put to each of these was related to material edited out in the putting together of a news slot or a news program. Is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That is correct.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. But that would imply that all footage that has been shot by a news organization would come in for inclusion in a news broadcast.

Mr. Moss. I refer to these interviews because I think it illustrates the fact that this committee has a problem in attempting to develop, one, the underlying policies which guide the wholly owned stations operated by CBS, and I think in fairness to the operating personnel at the lower echelon we should know from you gentlemen how the policy goes down, and what is the responsibility at each level of manage

ment.

It is that effort and that effort alone that we are trying to establish in this record.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. I submit, Mr. Moss, there is no policy on the retention of outages. I think the responses you have had from the five owned stations indicate no consistency in retention, which would give to me a manifestation that there is, indeed, no policy.

Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent that this document be placed into the record at this point.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(The document referred to follows:)

To: Mr. R.W. Lishman.

MEMORANDUM OF MAY 1, 1968

From: Mr. S. Arnold Smith.

Re: TV film outages.

I telephoned a number of television stations in order to ascertain their disposition policy regarding local news film "outages" (also called "outtakes" or "trim", i.e., film which has been edited out of programs prior to their broadcast). The results of these interviews are indicated below. In summary, they indicated that such film is maintained for a period ranging from one week after the edited version has been broadcast to permanently. And, according to one CBS owned and operated station, KNXT-TV Los Angeles, such "O & O" stations are bound by a CBS news policy which directs that such film be permanently retained.

1. IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

WRC-TV (Owned by National Broadcasting Company): According to Mr. C. J. Dwinell, film editor, outages are retained permanently.

WMAL-TV (Owned by Evening Star Newspaper Co.): According to Gary Sukow, Editorial Director, outages are retained at least one month and many permanently.

WTTG-TV (Owned by Metromedia Inc.): According to Ed Turner, Director of News, such outages are retained permanently.

WTOP-TV (Owned by Washington Post Co.): Mr. James Huggens, Executive V.P. & General Counsel, was not willing to relate his station's disposition policy but, via his news director, Mr. Ed Ryan, referred me to Mr. James Bennett in Denver (see below) for advice as to the general industry practice.

2. CBS OWNED AND OPERATED STATIONS

WCBS-TV New York City: According to Neil Waldman, of their film library, such outages are maintained for at least three months.

WCAU-TV Philadelphia: According to Joseph C. Daley, Producer of the 6 P.M. "Big News" program, such outages are retained for two or three weeks. KMOX-TV St. Louis: According to Mrs. Pam Kaegel, News Secretary, such film is maintained for approximately one week, but never destroyed in less time.

KNXT-TV Los Angeles: According to Miss Lorrain Hillman, Secretary to Mr, Robert E. Butterfield. Manager of Film Library, and Mr. Al Greenstein, Film Coordinator, such outages must be maintained permanently as per a CBS News directive which guides their disposition policy.

3. MR. JAMES BENNETT, NEWS DIRECTOR, KLZ-TV

Mr. Bennett is News Director of station KLZ-TV, Denver (owned by Time, Inc., through its wholly owned subsidiary TLF Broadcasters Inc.) and former director of RTNDA (Radio, Television News Directors Association). He stated that small and medium size stations generally dispose of such outages almost immediately. However, if the program content is of a controversial nature, the outages would be kept for an indefinite period. As to larger broadcast operations with adequate storage facilities, such as news divisions of the three networks and their owned and operated stations, such outages are permanently retained. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Massachusetts.

Mr. KEITH. Dr. Stanton was the program witnessed by the cameraman on or off the campus of Northwestern University?

Mr. STANTON. This is a question I am not prepared to answer because I have no firsthand knowledge of that situation.

Mr. KEITH. The film I saw yesterday for the first time, without any knowledge as to what I was going to witness, says at the bottom of the frame, if my recollection is correct, that it was taken on the Northwestern University campus.

I would think with your coming here to testify you would have had some indication of where it was taken or you would have made a inquiry. That, it seems to me, is an important thing.

Mr. STANTON. Mr. Keith, I am satisfied that it does. All I wanted to indicate was that I had no firsthand knowledge of that. I have it only from the investigation we caused to be made and from what I saw on the screen.

Mr. KEITH. What did your investigation prove to you?

Mr. STANTON. It satisfies me that what we said on the air was accurate.

Mr. KEITH. That it was filmed

Mr. SCHNEIDER. That the event took place.

Mr. KEITH. On the Northwestern University campus. They are the ones protesting this. The subtitle or whatever you call it so indicated.