me-the information I had is very relevant to the kind of things that they said, the kinds of things they did on television, and to other people, and the other people I talked to-Dean Hines, Mr. Kelly, and Mr. Kane had expressed interest in it. And it seemed to be relevant. And not only that, but I was willing to give time and talk to people, and go places, to see the incident through.

Mr. Moss. Well, then, what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that Mr. Ray showed a far greater interest in knowing the exact scope of the discussion you had with our investigators, rather than the definitive details of your contact with Mr. Missett?

Mr. SPECTOR. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman, if I may.

Did he, during his second discussion with you, discuss at all any conversations with Mr. Missett or any of the representatives of the station in any context other than the questions that might have been asked you by-about that by Mr. Kelly or Mr. Kane?

Mr. SPECTOR. No. He asked me nothing about my interaction with Missett, and my interaction with CBS.

Mr. DINGELL. During the second discussion?

Mr. SPECTOR. During the second discussion he talked exclusively about the situation and in minute detail the auspices of how I was approached, and he asked me about things that there would be no reason for me to know.

Mr. DINGELL. Such as?

Mr. SPECTOR. Such as how Mr. Kelly and Mr. Kane first heard of the case and took it under their jurisdiction. I mean that is something that I don't know. I accepted-all I knew was that Dean Hines, who I had talked to at great length about the incident, called me and asked if I was willing to be interviewed by these two men who were members of such and such a committee. And I said yes. I had no knowledge of how they ever came to know about the incident, or who sent them. I do not know that.

Mr. Moss. The questions of course were totally inappropriate to an investigator or official of the Federal Communications Commission. At that point you had every reason to assume, having sent him the affidavit, a copy of which has been entered on this record, that he had that affidavit, and had had full opportunity to acquaint himself with its

contents.

Mr. SPECTOR. He did have it, and he thanked me for it on the phone. I might add that I would have thought that when I came to the phone and it was him, I expected that the questions would concern clarifying things in the statement—that is, the statement-that there probably are areas where an investigator who knows things would want to know in more detail what happened. And I was expecting he would go over in more detail things that were in the statement which he then had in his hands. And he never mentioned it.

Mr. DINGELL. Did he ever discuss the way or the manner in which you had or were about to cooperate with either Mr. Kelly or Mr. Kane or both of them?

Mr. SPECTOR. To my knowledge there was no discussion of any further action. When Mr. Kelly and Mr. Kane called me, that was the first I had heard from anyone that I might be further-my services would be called on further. I had offered my services to Dean Hines

if there was a case that came to trial as a witness. I have offered my services to other people, should they have been interested in doing an investigation, or articles. The first people I offered were the Chicago Sun-Times. Át the end of the second broadcast, the second part of "Pot Party on Campus," after Faye Flynn had said that they in no way staged it, that they were invited to a party that was going on, I called the Sun-Times, and I got a reporter at the city desk and I said "The guy that did that thing, they denied staging it, and yet they asked me if I would stage it." And the Sun-Times never pursued that. To the best of my knowledge, no article came out about it.

Then I went and talked to Dean Hines, and told Dean Hines that. He was very interested in it. So I had offered my services to various people. But when Mr. Kane and Mr. Kelly called me, that was the first intimation I had from anyone to my recollection that I might be involved in further testimony.

Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Ray never discussed whether you had cooperated with them, whether you should cooperate with them, or the degree or the manner in which you either had or should cooperate with them in the future?

Mr. SPECTOR. No. He thanked me for talking to him in the past, and for sending me a copy of this document. But to the best of my recollection, he in no way asked me to be of future service. In fact I asked him if he would keep me informed of the developments of this case, since I had a personal interest in it, and he said that he would. Mr. DINGELL. But you have heard nothing from him? Mr. SPECTOR. I have heard nothing from him.

Mr. Moss. I would only observe, and perhaps it is an indiscretion on my part to do so, that your relating of the contact by the FCC does not lessen my confidence in them. It is about as low as it could be without having had that bit of additional intelligence.

Mr. Lishman.

Mr. LISHMAN. Mr. Spector, in your conversations with Mr. Ray, did he in any way suggest or ask you if you would supplement the information contained in your affidavit, a copy of which you had sent to him?

Mr. SPECTOR. No; to the best of my knowledge, he did not.

Mr. LISHMAN. He did not discuss any portion of that affidavit with you on the telephone?

Mr. SPECTOR. No, he did not. He thanked me for sending it to him. He said he had it in his possession. If I can say one thing. Another thing I remember-on each conversation there was another man listening on the phone with him. And I do not know if I have his name. I may have it written down on the slip of paper in Montreal. Mr. LISHMAN. Fitzpatrick?

Mr. SPECTOR. Mr. Ray did all the talking. I don't know.
Mr. Moss. But you were aware of the second person?

Mr. SPECTOR. There was a second man listening.

Mr. Moss. Would you explain to the committee at the committee's expense, by a reverse telephone call, when you return, that name, if you have it?

Mr. SPECTOR. I probably could. In fact, after this testimony, when somebody else is testifying, if I could use the phoneMr. Moss. We will arrange for that.

97-313-68- -5

Mr. SPECTOR. I could ask my wife to look in the desk drawer for that

slip of paper.

Mr. Moss. We will arrange for that, and hold the record at this point to receive the additional name.

Mr. SPECTOR. And the address.

Mr. Moss. And the address. And the date.

Mr. SPECTOR. I cannot promise the date.

Mr. Moss. If we have to, we can pull the FCC's records for the date. Mr. LISHMAN. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moss. Do you have any further questions?

Mr. DINGELL. I would like to just nail down a couple of questionssimply for the purposes of definition-"pot" mean marihuana in our discussions. A pot party is a party at which marihuana is smoked, is that correct?

Mr. SPECTOR. To the best of my knowledge pot is a generic term for a number of different kinds of marihuanas. That is, pot is-for instance, hashish is pot also. So is Tiajuana Gold. They are all pot. Pot is a generic term.

Mr. KELLY. The designation is, Mr. Dingell, R2. Primarily Cannabis Americana and Cannabis Sativa, or Cannabis Indicia. That is the hashish which is much more potent. Cannabis Americana is the weed that grows in this hemisphere.

Mr. Moss. It is indigenous in the hemisphere.

Mr. DINGELL. You did not appear in the clip of the kinescopes that we saw earlier, is that correct?

Mr. SPECTOR. That is correct. I had no part in that show, or either in recruiting people. I viewed it as it originally appeared. I had no part. I did not refer Mr. Missett to those individuals or any other individuals. I had no part in any part of the production of it. In fact, while I—I did not recognize the people who were on the show, I did not know who they were. These two guys know who I am better than I know who they are. They both know who I am. I really don't know them. They know me better than I know them.

After the thing was over, there were articles in the paper about those kids getting in trouble with the law. And I went to Dean Hines at Northwestern. He was very concerned about the university becoming a harborer for criminals. And I told him what I thought then and think now, and that is that whether those kids ever found out who they were or not, the university-it was my position that those kids were in enough trouble already, and what they needed was not the university breathing down their neck, but that somebody should help them, because they had been taken advantage of. If he gave the same pitch to them he gave to me-which you can find out, and which I did not know then and do not know now, but from the basis of what he said to me, if I had agreed to do that, what he said, and he produced the program that he did. I would have felt that I had been used, I would have felt that I had been misrepresented. I would have felt that and I would have felt had I gotten in trouble, it would have been-I don't know-I just thought it was really terrible. And I offered him my services, and if what I say is of interest, I will tell it to anybody because I think it is really rotten.

Mr. DINGELL. Thank you.

Mr. Moss. Are there any further questions?

Then, Mr. Spector, I want to express my appreciation as chairman, and I know I speak for the committee and the staff, for the cooperation you have shown us, and if you will make the phone call, you are then excused. I understand that you have your transportation. A witness fee will be sent to you. We thank you for your appearance. Mr. SPECTOR. Thank you.

Mr. KELLY. This next witness is Frank Feldinger; Mr. Chairman. Mr. Moss. All right, Mr. Feldinger.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK FELDINGER

Mr. KELLY. For the record, you have been sworn, Frank. Your name is Frank Feldinger. You now reside at 184 Sheridan Road? Mr. FELDINGER. That is my parents' home. I just moved into an apartment.

Mr. KELLY. Do you have the address?

Mr. FELDINGER. 1812 Asbury, in Evanston.

Mr. KELLY. Some time in October of 1967, you were a student at Northwestern University?

Mr. FELDINGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLY. The campus located in Evanston, Ill?

Mr. FELDINGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLY. At that particular time, can you tell us, or can you fix a date some time during that month when you had a conversation with an individual which then led you to a conversation with Jack Missett? Mr. FELDINGER. It must have been early in October, around the 10th, that shall I identify who it was?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. FELDINGER. Jack Fuller, the executive editor of the Daily Northwestern, the campus newspaper. I had worked with Fuller during the summer. He had written a series of articles for the Chicago Daily News on drug usage on campus, and I supplied him with certain information. He asked me what percentage of the students used it, what they felt about the laws, things like that. He said that a friend of his, a recent graduate from the School of Journalism, in which we were both enrolled, had seen the articles and was interested in doing a similar show for CBS-would it be all right, if he, Jack Fuller, gave my name to this person, whom he identified as Jack Missett, a Northwestern graduate? I said all right. About a week later-5 or 6 days later I received a phone call in my home in Winnetka from Jack Missett, that we would like to call to see me, and could he meet me next Wednesday. I said yes. He said "I will be wearing a doublebreasted blue blazer."

I came and talked to him. He said he had seen the article. He wanted to do a similar series. As I understood at that time, the importance of the show was to dispel the myths of marihuana, that it wasn't the hippies in the pejorative sense who used it, but it was clean-cut college students from good families, the things we talked over-the students would have no previous criminal record, that some of the things that would be emphasized on the show is most of the students present were dean's list, none of them had police records.

Mr. DINGELL. Did he state these things to you categorically?

Mr. FELDINGER. I think he did. But at the time I would not want to swear to it that he did. This is what I understood. And that I was to

get a cross section of students. I know he mentioned if I could get high school girl.

Mr. KELLY. The distillation of the discussion led you to believe that is what he wanted?

Mr. FELDINGER. Right. He told me at the time it would be filmed, all faces would be blocked out, and there would probably be a distortion of the recording itself. He said he would like it if somebody would drop LSD, take LSD at the time. That he wanted to first interview students while they were actually going up on marihuana, to show what the effects were, to show they did not become belligerent or hostile, and to interview them while they were still on marihuana.

He said we could not use a CBS studio because it would be a conspiracy. They could not supply the marihuana, because that would be conspiracy. I would have to find a place, and find the marihuana. I agreed to it.

Mr. KELLY. And the people?

Mr. FELDINGER. And the people, right.

Mr. DINGELL. He specified that he wanted a high school girl, is that right?

Mr. FELDINGER. Again I would not swear to that. I actually might have been the one to suggest it. He said he wanted a cross-examination, maybe some girls, boys, teachers.

Mr. KELLY. Did he also suggest a dropout?

Mr. FELDINGER. I would not swear to that either, it is possible. I am not really certain.

Mr. KELLY. Go ahead.

Mr. FELDINGER. I gathered the people during the week. It included one college dropout, a graduate assistant at Northwestern, a teacher, and several Northwestern students, and a student from Lake Forest College, Lake Forest, Ill.

Mr. KELLY. And at least one musician.

Mr. FELDINGER. One of the musicians was the dropout, the other was the student at Lake Forest, the guitar player and the zither player. I found an apartment a student had agreed to let us use. And I told

Missett.

Mr. KELLY. Where was that apartment?

Mr. FELDINGER. The original apartment was in Chicago.

Mr. KELLY. In Chicago?

Mr. FELDINGER. It was in Chicago.

Mr. DINGELL. And definitely not on the campus?

Mr. KELLY. Oh, no. By definition any private apartment is off campus housing, even if it is located on property owned by the university.

Mr. DINGELL. But this was not in Evanston?

Mr. FELDINGER. The original apartment was in Chicago. The student later balked. He was willing to do it. His roommates were planning another party. They said no. I called Missett during the week and said "It is off for this apartment, I will try for another location."

I then contacted Jerry Ginsburg. He said he would have it.
Mr. KELLY. Were you friendly with Jerry?

Mr. FELDINGER. Yes. I called Missett and told him it would be fine for next Sunday at his apartment. Gave him the address. He said fine. That Sunday Jerry decided it was going to be a bad idea to hold it.