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I am grateful to you.
Mr. WATKINS. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I want to make just one other point, following what we have all been observing, that I noticed with great interest, an article, I believe it was in last week's issue of the New York Review of Books, by the American economist, Robert Heilbroner, quoted by one of our witnesses earlier, entitled, "Ecological Armageddon." The whole point of the article which may have particular significance for a community like Watts or at least one point of the article was that the new concern about the environment in the United States and the way our country will look some years from now, over the long run, may become the basis for a new political movement, what Heilbroner called a "new New Deal," which will result both in widerin a wider base of support for environmental protection measures and more-in the long run, and, in the short run, attention to the whole spectrum of issues that Mr. Reid and I were just talking about.

That might be an idea, a suggestion, a perception that would have particular significance, I would have thought, in a State like California.

Mr. Watkins, thank you, again. We are aware of the fine leadership you are giving in Watts and we are very grateful to you for having

come.

Mr. WATKINS. Thank you.

Mr. REID. Thank you very much.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Our next witnesses, I wonder if they would just be kind enough to come up just in tandem, if there is no objection, Mr. and Mrs. Leslie Reid. Are they here with us, today? [No audible response.]

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Marc McGinnes, is he here?

Mr. MCGINNES. Yes; I am here.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Are you ready to testify, Mr. McGinnes?

Mr. MCGINNES. Yes.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Come right ahead, sir.

Mr. MCGINNES. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF MARC MCGINNES, COMMUNITY ENVIRONMENTAL COUNCIL, SANTA BARBARA

Mr. MCGINNES. My name is Marc McGinnes. I am from Santa Barbara. I, therefore, am one of the survivors of America's ecological Hiroshima, as Mr. Hill was saying, but don't worry too much about Santa Barbara. We're taking care of ourselves pretty well, there. I would urge my fellow citizens not to think too much about Santa Barbara any more but to look at their own community and see what the imperatives are in their own communities. The fact is that oil hit the beaches, hit people in the face and in the weeks and months that followed the oil disaster, we saw a response which is all too typical and that was to pick out convenient enemies and to say, "You are the polluters and we are the pollutees. We are suffering and you are the aggressors," without giving one whit of thought to how their life styles were maintaining this institution which can at its worst not only not serve them but can kill them.

Well, in the fall of last year, it became evident to organizations

working in the area of environmental control that we simply had to stop talking about the oil spill so much and get down to more basic facts. We now have a fairly well organized and well run and well functioning community organization and it is this aspect of your bill which I would like to speak about, primarily.

I think that community organizations this one happens to be a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization-need Federal funds and I think that, as Mr. Brademas was saying, only in the short term. Right now, there is a lot of lipservice about the-about ecology. It has been said that the Governor of this State devoted one-third of his state of the State address to ecological problems and one three-hundredths of the budget to that.

We are finding that at least in Santa Barbara that we are not having a great deal of trouble mobilizing the citizens as far as the devotion of a certain amount of their time is concerned but money is tight, the economic underpinnings of this society are slim and there is just not a lot of money. So we could and we do need Federal funds at least from the outset and I hope that these minigrants that will be available under this bill will be forthcoming to community organizations such as this one.

Again, I think that Santa Barbara probably won't need it. It would be bad for Santa Barbara to take such funds, as there is plenty of private wealth there, but other communities less well off will need it.

I know that communities across the land are starting to get hip: it is becoming clear that it's life style change that we're talking about, and they are forming up.

A lot of the testimony here today has been cumulative, naturally, and I suppose that in all of the times you have had those hearings, a lot of this stuff probably is getting a little bit old.

I would like to make a few comments, if I may, regarding some of the things that I have heard here today. I can't resist making my statement about them.

Mr. Chairman, you spoke of, "great cities," "this great city." Well, I trust that you were speaking in terms of a quantitative approach. This is not a great city.

Mr. BRADEMAS. That is what I said, "demographic."

Mr. MCGINNES. Nor is any other city a great city which does not plan very carefully its growth, considering the factors of environmental capacity and quality. Now, very few cities have done this. It has got to be an educational process. I say the imperative is to hit adult education. I mean, if we are talking in fact, as Paul Ehrlich has written the scenario of the death of the oceans by 1979, we are not talking so much about elementary education. We are talking to the people who went through the depression, who have all kinds of different motives, different values, that have been seriously called into question by virtue of the changed circumstances that we are now facing.

Again, the Santa Barbara experience is, we have absolutely no problem with elementary and secondary education. Some of our best people in the movement are teachers. We have a devil of a problem with the older people themselves.

Mr. REID. Could I ask, at that point, Mr. Chairman

Mr. MCGINNES. Please.

Mr. REID. You said the problems in Santa Barbara were not the obvious ones; to some degree, in a sense, you did not even need help; but you did say that the oil matter did not touch the life styles and I presumed you meant that the system was maintaining a drive for oil even though they did not say they wanted it spilled on their shore. Mr. MCGINNES. That is true.

Mr. REID. Have you been able to reach that-get to the fundamental problem instead of just the pollution problem?

Mr. MCGINNES. No; we have not been able to reach that state yet but, naturally, that is what we are driving for. A few, a minority, a definite minority even before the spill were talking about oil in Santa Barbara: Do we want Santa Barbara to become an oil town? It's completely inappropriate as an oil town. It is equally inappropriate for Santa Barbara to turn into a San Fernando Valley but that's just what is happening, right now, not because the students are not-are supporting something like this. It's because the people in power are— for example, there's a development 20 miles north of Santa Barbara. It's about 40 miles south of Vandenburg. It's between the two fastest growing areas in Santa Barbara County. Now, this development would put a community of a couple of thousand people in that area. Now, it's obvious what's going to happen. Growth is going to proceed toward Santa Barbara, from Santa Barbara, and Vandenburg, both ways. We are going to have a whole spill-out.

What's the primary argument in support of this? It's going to bring money to the county; it's going to bring new industry, new life. We need the revenues. Now, we really don't need it.

Santa Barbara has another alternative. We can keep our populace. We can keep our soft industry within the urban envelope that the county taxpayers have spent several thousand dollars on designing in a general plan. But these are the arguments, again, and they are in your heads; they are in mine. They are not in the kids' minds.

We have got to really get cracking on this, right away. That's what I think. That is, again, why I think that the most significant aspect of your bill is the adult education aspect in the community projects. Feel free to break in at any time.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Let me just ask you, at that point, how would you go about using-you were suggesting that you did not really need Federal money in Santa Barbara, but let us forget the source of the money, for a moment and ask how the money would be expended.

Mr. MCGINNES. Right.

Mr. BRADEMAS. In an adult education program through a minigrant of some kind, who would do the teaching and what kind of teaching materials would you use? Where would you get them?

Mr. MCGINNES. Well, in Santa Barbara, within the next couple of weeks, there will be a center-this is where the money would go-a center housing a library, a reference library, a book store, a film service, a center perhaps not large enough to have conference facilities on it but a center which would have the capability in terms of resources people on a volunteer basis to teach environmental studies on a workshop-field trip basis.

For example, this summer in Santa Barbara, because of the economic plight, there will be no summer school for the children of Santa Barbara, so we are meeting that need through the community ecology

center in taking as many of the students as possible in kind of a private educational institution on 2-week field trip-workshop programs in environmental education. Where are the teachers coming from? There are teachers in the high schools who won't be teaching, this summer. I don't think there will be any problem in getting qualified people to teach environmental awareness because that's what it really is.

Let the technical aspects be taught, you know, later on or in another kind of a structured atmosphere. What we're trying to teach is environmental awareness. This can be done in your local supermarket where you walk through and say, "Now look at that. Does anything strike you about that?"

"Yes. What do you need all that metal around a cannister of male deodorant for?"

"What else strikes you?"

"Why do you need so many male deodorants?"

You know.

And this whole thing is cumulative. You start asking; you stop demanding, "I want, I want, I want," and say, "What do you really need? What is enough?"

Another point. You know, the cowboy economy we have kept. We have been moving west and some say "now we find ourselves without frontiers." Well, that's not true. We still have a lot of frontiers. The question is whether we will continue to exploit the frontiers at the exof other peoples. We have moved so far west that we have crossed the Pacific Ocean and now, we're in Southeast Asia.

pense

That war has been supported by some people as a means of protecting our markets and this is something I am sure that is in the record, already. One-fifteenth of the world's population, of the world's people, 40 percent of the resources, but we are going to continue to grab more than our fair share in the world or are we going to retrench, redefine our values and survive?

Congressman Hansen said that he thought it was beyond question— he said that there was no doubt that we would either all survive or we would all perish. I feel that some of us will survive; some of us will perish.

Mr. HANSEN. Is it not a matter of how long we survive? Some will survive longer but if the trends now in evidence are not reversed, life justice are we going to be able to achieve.

Mr. MCGINNES. See, I don't want to be contentious with you in that regard. I am stating this by way of illustrating this point-that is, the point made by the person who testified before me, again, that the environmental imperative is before us but I don't think that human survival-we should not really dwell on that too much. We should rather dwell upon what kind of survival are we going to have, what kind of justice we are going to be able to achieve.

I look at the environment as living space and environmental problems, therefore, as every problem within the living space.

We had a conference on January 28, to mark the passage of 1 year from the spill. Black people there wanted to speak. They weren't on the program. Many people sponsoring the program felt, "Disruption. Isn't this terrible?" But these people were just trying to say what we

should all be aware of, that, by God, how can you sit and talk about oil on the beaches and tar on your feet when people are living in misery and living in an environment which is made degrading by the same considerations that you are mouthing words about, in the abstract; but here, you can roll up your sleeves and get right down to it, right in Santa Barbara.

So, do I make myself clear?

I think that, let's not think of ourselves as all going to perish. Let's think, "Who's going to go first? Whom are we going to allow to die first?"

Mr. HANSEN. Really, the point I was trying to make, also, is that there is a high degree of interdependence, that we have to attack these problems of pollution on a wide and global front. It may be that some will survive longer than others. We depend on each other. As the world shrinks, we are developing the technology to pollute each other's air and water and to destroy the elements on which life has to depend. This is really the point that I attempted to make in my reference. Mr. MCGINNES. I see.

Mr. HANSEN. Let me focus on another aspect of the problem.

Coming from a rural State-And I think probably in the course of these hearings, the only one who has talked about it to any extent was Dr. Margaret Mead-even if we achieve the zero population that many have indicated is essential that does not stop the population from moving to these large urban centers.

Now, in my own State of Idaho, we have about 750,000 people. We used to say that apologetically. We don't any more. We are rather proud of that fact. But in many of the counties in the State of Idaho and this is typical of a great many States in this country-the population is going down; and I think you would find that even if the overall population in the country were to stabilize, that we would be moving out of the areas of the wide open spaces and fresh air into these large urban centers. This suggests to me and this was the point that Dr. Mead made-that we have to address ourselves to the quality of life in the rural areas. We have to develop the kind of economic opportunities that will make it possible for people to stay in the countryside where there is more room and to earn a living and to live the kind of life that will discourage them from coming into the cities.

There is a great interdependence between the cities and rural areas; so, as we focus on problems of population, we should look not only at overall numbers but where the people are and try to determine the kinds of programs and policies that will make it possible to disperse the people more widely, to live gently on the land, to live in peace with nature, and to avoid this enormous congestion that has been and will continue to be a big factor in the problems of deterioration of the environment.

Mr. MCGINNES. Well, I think that is a matter of adult education. There is money to be made in this environmental thing, if industry will realize it. They find themselves in the posture of being called the enemy and they are essentially reacting and coming out with ecopornography, which is the definition of advertising which purports to say that they are involved and they are concerned about the environment when, in fact, they are not.

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