hillsides outside San Diego. That's the first time I understood the word "ecology."

It is this kind of thing, if you specifically say in the bill prototypes of the kinds of things that get the money, those would have to be guidelines administered in the program.

Mr. HANSEN. Again, I concur with what you are saying, that any group-if they get together and come up with an idea that deserves to be explored and developed-should have the opportunity to make. the proposal and receive some assistance.

The problem in drafting legislation, you see, is to identify the goal sufficiently but, at the same time, provide a fairly wide area within which entirely new ideas may be developed.

Professor SCRIVEN. Well, there are two specific things that I really think your committee might do, Mr. Chairman, just because of your general obligations:

One is to really throw out the Office of Education application forms. They are the worst in the world, not just in the United States but they lead the world by far.

You probably have heard that kind of comment before, but I will say that I don't consider myself stupid but I found myself unable to complete the forms required to get post graduate scholarships for one of my students, even after they had called me up and said, "We will give it to you, it's already awarded, all you have to do is fill the form in."

Well, I still couldn't do it, I mean in a period of some weeks. This is only when a signature is needed.

But I think if you are going in particular to Mr. Hansen's question, where he is looking for bringing in some of the groups that are not trained in groundmanship, it is terribly important to do that. I get scared off easily and they can't even manage first base.

But as a second point, I am against the university extending this sort of degree, including the Southern Idaho College, because it would be an unfair advantage for them since they still have an environment. [Laughter.]

Mr. HANSEN. Well, we will try to hang onto it as long as we can. I made the suggestion to Dr. Martin when he testified and we were in agreement that we would like to have a one-page application form and I think that certainly could be improved and perhaps that might be one of the goals in implementing this bill, if we can get a very short form so that anyone can understand it and put down an idea and have the opportunity.

Professor SCRIVEN. I would be happy to volunteer my services in helping in that.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you very much to all of you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I just want to make one other point:

Since most of you have been talking about the need for developing people who have a multidisciplinary perspective that, as Mr. Pepper pointed out, the Members of Congress and the administration and industrial tycoons are all guilty parties in this matter, so is the academic community.

I think you indicated that the guilt was on everybody, it was on all the citizens of the Republic.

One of the points made in that essay coauthored by John Steinhardt that, I take it, most of you are familiar with, is that in most American universities the rigidities are such that the department heads and the faculties are all very tenaciously clinging to their own jurisdictions, almost as outrageously as congressional committee chairmen under the seniority system, if you will, for a good comparison.

So if you believe, I take it you all do-and I know that Mr. Hansen and I certainly do that ideas are terribly important in this whole area, if we are talking about developing attitudes-which is at the heart of the whole business-then I think we are going to have to rely on the American university community for at least some significant leadership in helping people like us in government as well as the citizenry in general to understand the need for taking a holistic attitude or multidisciplinary attitude, whatever adjective one wants, and I would just reiterate that I have found this-and as Mr. Hansen has already indicated-we have found your contributions enormously helpful to us in our understanding of this legislation.

If any of you have any other point or comment you would like to make before we conclude, why, I hope you feel free to do so.

Mr. PEPPER. I would just like to respond to that point with the question of how do you employ and who employs the generalist, and I think one of the major problems within the university today is that it is beginning to face up to the fact that specialists keep the specialists going. You are talking to a group of people today who would like to appreciably alter that trend.

But it merely gets back down to job security. It gets down to who wants to employ somebody who knows a little bit about everything and maybe

Mr. BRADEMAS. That's what Congressmen are supposed to be for. Dr. SCHULTZ. I would like to add one point to this that, as Jim mentioned, this is sort of a vicious cycle. You have a specialist who comes out as the product of a school and he gets the job with an employer who also is a specialist and who looks for specialists and then he is trained after he gets to be in that position and he wants specialists, too.

So this is a cycle that you have to break into artificially and produce the generalists and perhaps subsidize him so that you can stick him into this cycle, and this bill ought to provide that kind of a subsidy, something to produce generalists and put him into the cycle. Miss CORWIN. Perhaps that kind of thing can go under this bill. If it can't perhaps it can come up under another one?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Well, I reiterate, Dr. Scriven, Mr. Pepper, Miss Corwin, and Dr. Schultz, I appreciate your contributions and indeed the contribution of all witnesses in San Francisco.

Tomorrow the subcommittee will be in Los Angeles. We thank you once again for the hospitality that has been extended to us by Dr. Lindsey and by the California Academy of Sciences in allowing us to have our hearings here.

The subcommittee is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 4:46 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.)

ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY EDUCATION ACT

SATURDAY, MAY 2, 1970

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SELECT SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION,

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Los Angeles, Calif.

The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., in room 8120, Federal Building, Hon. John Brademas (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Brademas, Bell, Reid, and Hansen. Staff members present: Jack G. Duncan, counsel; Maureen Orth, consultant; Marty LaVor, minority legislative coordinator.

Mr. BRADEMAS. The Select Subcommittee on Education of the Committee on Education and Labor of the House of Representatives will come to order.

For the purpose of further consideration of the bill H.R. 14753, the Environmental Quality Education Act, we are meeting here.

The Chair wants to state at the outset how very pleased we are to be here in California and in the Los Angeles area for the purpose of hearing witnesses on this significant piece of legislation.

For the benefit of those of you who may want to know who all of us are, on my far left is Congressman Orval Hansen of Idaho, Congressman Ogden Reid of New York and, of course, you are all familiar with your own Congressman, Alphonzo Bell, on whom I am going to call in just a moment.

The Chair would like to observe just an opening word with respect to this legislation.

The people of Los Angeles, one of the greatest cities in our own country and, indeed, in the world, face some of the most serious environmental problems in the Nation: dirty air, polluted water, and overcrowding, which are daily examples in most of our great cities of our continuing failure to develop intelligent and effective environmental policies. It is the judgment of most of the members of our committee that urban dwellers, especially, need education to help develop such policies. Yet the schools of our country and most communities today have almost no resources to teach about environmental problems. The Environmental Quality Education Act which we are considering in California here today is aimed at helping provide Federal support to our schools and in communities to provide teaching about the whole range of issues that we have come to call environmental.

The subcommittee is particularly pleased to be able to welcome here today or to invite to welcome us here today, our distinguished colleague, one of the outstanding members of the Committee on Education and Labor, your own Representative in Congress and one who

has won the regard of members of this committee and of the House of Representatives on both sides of the political aisle, Congressman Alphonzo Bell, of the 28th District of California.

Mr. BELL. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Brademas, I want to commend you for your leadership in bringing these hearings out here.

Greater Metropolitan Los Angeles is on the front line in the increasingly urgent national battle against pollution.

Problems involving loss of control of the environment here, particularly our smog, have troubled us for almost a quarter of a century. Local citizens have come to expect public officials to talk about pollution.

They do not have great confidence that public officials will do anything about it.

Perhaps for that reason, it is especially useful for the House Select Subcommittee on Education to hold one of its hearings here to take testimony on the pending Environmental Quality Education Act. I am pleased to be a cosponsor of this bill.

I know there are many approaches, both long range and short range, which governments must soon take to achieve better environmental control.

The Environmental Quality Education Act is not a short-term response.

It is based, rather, upon a conviction that the problems which we must deal with in this field will be with us in some form for at least the remainder of the century.

The bill is designed to help our schools meet the serious need for environmental studies and authorizes funds for

1. Developing materials for teaching courses concerned with our environment, conservation, pollution control and natural

resources.

2. Training teachers in these fields.

3. Helping to provide ecology studies courses in elementary and secondary schools.

4. Organizing community conferences on our environment.

5. Preparing materials on the environment for use by the mass media.

This is not dramatic legislation, except to the extent that it underscores a very significant point about this problem.

Getting control and then, keeping control of our environment is a lifelong basis.

It will be a battle which our children will inherit after us. And perhaps with better education, they will be better prepared to deal with it than we have been.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much. Mr. Bell.

The Chair would like to observe that we have several witnesses today and we are going to move ahead as expeditiously as we can to hear from them and to put questions to them and then, we will make a judg ment as we go along as to whether or not we will break for lunch or be able to complete our hearings in the morning session.

Our first witness is Mr. Rudolph J. H. Shafer, a consultant in conservation education, Bureau of Elementary and Secondary Education, California State Department of Public Instruction.

Mr. Shafer, we are pleased to have you with us. Go right ahead, sir.

STATEMENT OF RUDOLPH J. H. SHAFER, CONSULTANT IN CONSERVATION EDUCATION, BUREAU OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION, CALIFORNIA STATE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC

INSTRUCTION

Mr. SHAFER. We are pleased to have you visit us, in Los Angeles. We have an unusually nice day for you. We ordered that, especially. Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Bell said he would arrange it.

Mr. SHAFER. You have a prepared statement which I have given you. The need for this type of thing is well established. Perhaps it suffices to state that developing an informed public conservation conscience is what we are concerned with. We have to bring our personal habits in line with environmental problems and we also need strong public support for sound environmental policies and practices.

I wanted to briefly go over some of the things that have been happening in the State of California, in this particular area.

Since 1968, we have had a requirement in the State Education Code that instruction concerning conservation of natural resources is required in grades 1 to 12 in schools in California. We have had this on the books, now, for some 2 years.

Also, we have had a Citizens' Advisory Committee, working on this particular subject, to develop plans, guidelines and ideas and I have sent copies of their report to the committee. I think you have that on file.

This entire committee project and my activities in the Department of Education are funded under Title V, ESEA grant, which has been very worthwhile.

The Advisory Committee has recommended that we do something about teacher training because we realize that you can take away the building, you take away the blackboard, you take way the books and education can still go on as long as there are students and a teacher. Therefore, we feel that the place to begin is with teachers and teacher education. We are recommending a strong teacher-to-teacher training program in California, which we hope can be started next year.

We would like to see not necessarily administrators instructing teachers but teachers working with other teachers.

We would like to see, if possible, conservation specialists in each school area, that could work with teachers because we see conservation as something that cannot be taught in any one subject area, but has implications in many subject areas. We need a specialist that can help teachers discover these possibilities.

We would like to provide bus transportation for educational school journeys. We know that it is important to study the environment and to observe things firsthand but in many cases, transportation is not available. We would like to provide bus money for local districts.

For the last twenty years, we have had outdoor school programs in