their radio announcements. They have their newspaper publicity ready. They have advertising schedules ready to run in magazines, and they think that the work of keeping these pledges good has been cared for by the campaign that is under way. They have organized governors committees. They have organized committees of mayors and they feel that that effort will succeed in saving the 100,000,000 bushels of grain to which they had pledged themselves as they started their work.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not quite understand who is doing this now, from now on.

Secretary ANDERSON. I have tried to say that most of the work now becomes more or less routine. The advertising council has arranged for the necessary advertising for the radio time, for the steady messages. The governors councils which have been set up within the various States will continue these conservation measures that have been outlined to them. The mayors committees in cities will work to persuade people to help in these conservation efforts. But of course we are relying for very substantial savings from farm groups, and we naturally think that these State USDA councils, county organizations, all through the country, will help.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand your end of the work. I am talking about people's savings. I do not see why it does not fall to pieces if somebody does not direct it, if it has not fallen to pieces already.

Secretary ANDERSON. I am sure Mr. Luckman will be in Washington for such time as necessary and will come when necessary to get out additional items of information, but he does now feel that the goal is in sight, that the closing of distilleries for a period of 60 days will produce a specified number of bushels of grain, that the pledge made by the brewers will produce a saving of grain to which they have pledged themselves. He knows that in the poultry pledge he has behind him not only all of the people who particularly represent the poultry industry, but as well the four major farm organizations, that they are committed to the drive, and that they will see it through, and therefore he feels that the work of his committee has largely ceased. It is a follow-through process from here on out.

I have not stated it as well as he could to you, but. I am sure that is his general philosophy.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, we are dealing more with price. It occurs to me if you cut down the amount of grain for beer, the price of beer will go up and not down.

Senator SPARKMAN. It is more important that the price of grain go down, is it not?

Secretary ANDERSON. I do not think that in the temporary period that the beer prices will reflect any great change, but it is a desire to take purchasing pressures off supplies such as wheat, and there has been a relief in pressure for some time; that wheat price was moving up pretty rapidly. It has sort of stabilized now, close to a $3 figure. The CHAIRMAN. What is the effect of feeding stock to a lower weight? Does that reduce the total amount of meat?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes, and that is why there will be difficulties in the meat sector next spring. We do feel, however, that by reducing the weights of hogs going to market, that we are able to preserve the industry so that you can

The CHAIRMAN. You get more grain for Europe, but you get higher prices for the Americans, is that not correct? Is that not the net result of the program?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes, I think that you could only say that there will be a greater shortage of meat, and that without controls it might result in higher meat prices. Certainly next spring would be a difficult situation because we will be at a level that could run from 125 to 135 pounds, and that is a relatively low per capita consumption with the amount of spending money there is available in this country today. It is a question

The CHAIRMAN. What I mean is, the effect on price, as I see it, can only be accomplished by a reduction of consumption in this country. There is a demand for a supply which is more or less limited, and which we are now limiting further in some fields, and I am sorry to see what seems to be kind of a general breakdown of programs for the reduction. of the ultimate consumption of food, and meat and grain, and so forth. Secretary ANDERSON. That is why I say that Mr. Luckman hopes that the campaign of the Citizens Food Committee, for example, an eggless day a week, may be continued, because this is a period of normally scarce egg supplies. If you have the same buying pressures in that market, you tend to raise the price of eggs; you tend to make it desirable for a farmer to retain inefficient producers where he could normally cull a poor hen from the flock, and the only hope that the campaign of this nature which gets a larger quantity of grain, the only hope it has for succeeding, that there shall be coincidentally some reduction in effective demand for meat and for eggs to match somewhat smaller supplies.

The CHAIRMAN. If we want to go further into this question of the conservation of food, do you suggest that Mr. Luckman is the man that we should call?

Secretary ANDERSON. I think he would be a very good witness.
The CHAIRMAN. He is still in charge of the matter?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes, indeed.

The CHAIRMAN. Although not here so much, is that it?

Secretary ANDERSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there other questions?

Representative RICH. I would like to ask Mr. Anderson this question. You say that you and Mr. Luckman had the cooperation of the breweries in closing down for 60 days in order to conserve grain? Secretary ANDERSON. The distillers closed for 60 days, not the brewers.

Representative RICH. I would not know the difference between a brewery and a distillery.

Secretary ANDERSON. I am unable to testify about grain speculation. When you get to distillers and brewers, I am a qualified witness. Representative RICH. Well, now, the point I want to ask is this: If we ask our distilleries to close down here for 60 days, why is it that we are shipping grain out of the country to foreign countries and permitting it for the purpose of taking care of the starving people, as we say, and yet we are permitting people i foreign countries who buy our grain or who get it as a gift to run their distilleries and then the State Department cuts down the tariff on liquors, taking effect the 1st of January, bringing that liquor back over to this country? Can you explain why the administration is permitting that to happen?

Secretary ANDERSON. Well, I would have to divide it into two classes, whisky and beer. It may take quite a little while for me, but maybe I can do it briefly, and say that there is very little grain sent from this country that ever reaches the type of business that you are referring to. I would like to say that there is absolutely none. Representative RICH. How do you know there is not?

Secretary ANDERSON. Well, I say that is why I would like to say there is absolutely none. I am not able to prove the absolute destination of all of the grain that we ship, but I am reasonably certain that all of the grain that we ship is handled directly as human food and not a bit of it ever goes into the manufacture of either beer or whisky in any country.

Representative RICH. Where do they get their grains then to manufacture their own liquor? They use their own grains and use ours to feed the people, and use their own grains for manufacturing liquors?

Secretary ANDERSON. Now, may I say that in the case of Britain, Britain gets its supply of grain from Canada and Australia, and not from the United States. A very small amount of our grain did go to them at one time, virtually none at the present time, and the only thing we have been able to do is to suggest to the people of Britain that it does disturb folks in this country occasionally to see their liquors coming into this country, because we are all in the business of supplying grain to the needy world together, and what Canada has and Australia has, we feel might go into a pool for the benefit of other people.

On the other hand, the only thing that supplies dollars these days is exports, and one of the most fruitful sources of exports as a means of obtaining dollars for Britain happens to be various types of liquors. It is a matter that has been dealt with many many times. I can assure you it has been the subject of a great deal of discussion, but it is not a simple matter to solve.

Representative RICH. It seems to me it would be pretty simple to simply tell them as long as they are going to use grains over there to manufacture liquors when we prohibit our distillers to manufacture them here, that if you do not stop it over there, we will not ship any grains. It seems to me that would be the answer.

Secretary ANDERSON. Well, it is a very difficult answer to make, and there is another factor that enters into it. Our stocks of liquor in the United States were very ample at the time our distillers closed down. There was a very strong likelihood that we would be in the midst of a sort of distillers' warfare if we did not stop the production and put it. at a more even pace. I do not think the same hardship was done to our distillers as it would be to a distillery in Britain to close it down, where they have been operating on very short rations all during the war, and where they even now are operating at a very low figure. Over the year they will operate at a much lower figure than our distillers will over the year.

I would dislike to be put in the position of defending this policy, because I have no connection with it, actually.

Representative RICH. Do you figure that liquor is more vital to the welfare of the people over there to keep them from starving than bread?

Secretary ANDERSON. No; you know I do not, Mr. Rich.

Representative RICH. I know you do not. I know you do not. That is the reason why I think the Administration ought to step on them and prohibit them from making any more liquor when you close our own distilleries down.

Secretary ANDERSON. Well, we deal to a great degree with our food in countries that are not manufacturing tremendous quantities of liquor. At the same time there are some very difficult problems that arise out of their desire to get dollar balances.

Representative RICH. Why do they need dollar balances when we give them everything?

Secretary ANDERSON. I am sorry to say that those things must come to them from the Department of Agriculture. We do not give it to them.

Representative RICH. Mr. Secretary, I do not want to embarrass you. That is my sentiment, and I think we ought to do it.

Representative BENDER. Í am wondering if the Secretary or the Administration has anything in mind regarding the further or continuing program that they have embarked upon of asking distillers to remain closed, or are you going to ask Congress for legislation to restrict the distilling in this country?

Secretary ANDERSON. I would say that the question of what will be asked of the Congress with reference to allocation of powers on grain is not solely my decision, but will involve discussions with the Commerce Department and the State Department and others. I do believe that the request will be made for legislation which will permit the allocation of grain to its most useful purpose. If so, it is entirely possible that that could be used to further restrict the distilling of whisky in this country. During the entire war period the breweries. were at times reduced, the distilleries were pretty steadily closed. They were allowed certain holidays which permitted them to lay in some stocks, but I do not think that the distilleries could make quite the same case now that they could even make during the periods of the war. They have, relatively speaking, a very large supply of liquor on hand. Actually they are selling more and more blended whiskies, rather than bonded whiskies, and that makes their stock of liquor go much farther. They are using a good deal of neutral spirits, so that I feel the distilling industry is not in extreme peril by being closed down for a small period. Therefore, if there was reposed in the Department of Agriculture any power to allot grain, and we felt that the situation came down to a choice between certain types of food and liquor, we might ask for restriction of the industry.

Representative BENDER. Do you have any information regarding the amount of Scotch whisky on hand in this country?

Secretary ANDERSON. No, I do not, but it is somewhat limited. I am not trying to contribute to inflation in Scotch prices, but I can assure you that the supply of Scotch whisky is not adequate for present consumption rates.

Representative BENDER. You think most of the exports of the British are Scotch whisky?

Secretary ANDERSON. I think most of the exports of the British are Scotch whisky.

Representative HUBER. Mr. Secretary, if you curtail the output of the brewers, would not that also affect the available byproducts, the

malt byproducts that are available for the dairy farmers, and then affect the supply of milk, and cause an increase in the price of milk? Secretary ANDERSON. I recognize there is a certain byproduct which comes from the manufacture of both whisky and beer. The organizations which represent the distillers have done excellent work in preparation of tables to show that you get back as much feeding value from the manufacture of alcohol as actually goes into it. I am not able to persuade myself that that is correct. I have recommended many times that there is a better case that can be made out for beer than perhaps the operation of distilleries. There is a food value to beer. There are certain definite calories that can be measured in a glass of beer. There are working classes who depend to some degree for that as a part of their diets, and in view of the fact that there is a very large recovery value to beer, and a very substantial calory content in the product, I for one have been a little more lenient perhaps with the brewers than I have with the distilleries.

Representative HUBER. Apropos to this reference of Congressman Bender, the statements that have been made, if all of the statements that have been made by Members of Congress and those in the administration and out of the administration were laid end to end, and we proceeded from there, would it not be a good thing?

The CHAIRMAN. It is true, however, Mr. Huber's point, that the conservation of grain in beer results in feed for American consumption for cattle and other livestock, and therefore tends somewhat toward an increase in price. That would be correct, would it not?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There was some rumor that you were planning to ship abroad malting barley.

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes, some will be shipped abroad. I am sorry that I cannot give you the exact quantity. I could get it if you desire. The malting barley is a special problem, Mr. Chairman. The malting barley brings a much higher price than the other barley under normal conditions, and if we do not allow it to be used for the preparation of malt, it has a tendency not to be used for grain for livestock, and therefore it just accumulates. We might as well make use of it. Last year we were shipping abroad something in the neighborhood of 5 million bushels per year. However, since this sort of tight situation developed, we put these shipments under license and cut down very substantially the amount that was to be sent so that for the next 2-month period, it is about 650,000 bushels, which is at the rate of about 3 to 4 million bushels a year.

The CHAIRMAN. It is true that the British get Canadian grain. While that is true, of course, it is also true that it is all in one port for all practical purposes, and also that we are being asked to pay the British for them to get this Canadian grain.

Secretary ANDERSON. I tried to say, Mr. Chairman, that I do not try to defend the whole situation entirely. I just say there are considerations in which the State Department is involved, and many other things are involved, so that it is not just a question of the Agriculture Department's decision at all.

Senator BALL. Mr. Secretary, in your recommendation on the final paragraph of your statement, I take it you do not need any additional legislation to authorize this conservation drive that you are undertaking.