Custer and the Indians. Every time you look around there are some coming and they want something for it, whether constituents or whatever.

In making these remarks, I want to make it perfectly clear I am not opposed to the transportation industry, or as a private industry at all, because I think many of them have legitimate complaints to make. But I am trying to make some kind of orderly sense out of recommendations to you.

Mr. Chairman, I believe it is absolutely essential, as a result of this subsidy program that has been going on in American history for many years, that Congress has got to get control of this spending for public transportation and the promotion of it. It has to be done by centralizing and getting on top of it.

Now, a great step forward has been made in the setting up of the Department of Transportation. But as you well know, there are many transportation functions and promotions that are outside of that field.

My feeling is that for the development of the integrated system, that the Congress should work toward the goal of being a policy body only. It long ago got out of their ratesetting business by turning that over to the regulatory agency, but it is still deeply involved in this spending program and all that goes with it.

My belief is that this control must be centralized in one set of hands for all forms of public transportation promotion that the Congress does. Whether it be airlines, or railroads, or public roads, or water transportation, or whatever.

I, parenthetically, have run across this, of course, on a much, much smaller scale in the General Assembly of Virginia. I introduced a bill to do that. I was amazed at the amount of almost spontaneous support it got. The bill did not pass, it was perhaps premature, but I think that this is the kind of a program that we have got to adopt legislatively, as an approach, otherwise we are going to spend ourselves into oblivion because the public demand for transportation is virtually unsatiable. It always has been.

I say again, I do not blame the transportation company, the private sector for their demands, because they have been encouraged to come in and make separate demands. But I think that they have got to be made responsible as a part of this integration system.

Therefore, I believe that Congress should lay down conditions for the issuance of certificates of convenience and necessity in such form as it sees fit. The man who plays the fiddle can call the tune. And I do not think Congress should hesitate to do that. The private sector, of course, could not have built this magnificent airport here, if they were not expected to. But by the same token, the Federal Government having built National Airport and Dulles, I think can call the tune as to their use.

By taking the promotion and subsidy program out of the legislative arena, I would suggest that Congress give serious consideration to a form of partnership between the Government and the private sector. I do not think that you can get on top of it until you put all of your apples in one bucket and see what the needs are and how far the money that is there can go.

Until you do that, I think you are meeting yourself coming in the door; the Federal Government is in effect competing with itself. You

are asking for suggestions and we are talking about National Airport which the Federal Government owns and this airport which the Federal Government owns, and all of the rest of the subsidy programs and it is competing with itself.

Now, for this purpose, I would suggest as I say, first of all, the centralization and control of the transportation promotion functions, the long range goal in the Government-maybe not so long range. Second, as a part of this partnership with private industry, I think that you could well consider the setting up of a nonprofit corporation with perhaps equal representation from private industry transportation, which is interested, and the Government, something like analogous to either the Communications Satellite Corporation or possibly like the corporation which has been suggested for the Post Office Department.

Until you put that funnel right there where the money goes in and the money comes out and the needs are evaluated, I do not think that you can come up with a very good answer, a balanced, integrated transportation system in this metropolitan area or otherwise.

I think that should be given serious consideration. Because of the regulation which that would involve, you might even consider suspension of the antitrust laws as a long-term objective, because you will have plenty of regulation otherwise as far as the transportation company.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, on the three particular points which have been discussed here, do I or do I not oppose the expansion of National Airport as suggested in the Kling report, my reaction is that probably yes, but I cannot give you an intelligent answer until this type of information is available.

Second, on rapid rail transit to Dulles, again I am inclined to favor it, but I have not sufficient information to say whether it would be a paying proposition, with or without subsidies. Well, I know there has to be a subsidy.

Third, as to cutting down the number of flights into National Airport and diverting them to Dulles, I think that on the safety case, as I understand it, that a strong case has been already made for that. I certainly come down hard for that.

But, again, in closing, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that the problem can be approached piecemeal. It is too much to ask the Congress to do.

Thank you, sir.

Senator SPONG. Thank you very much for your rather imaginative testimony.

I am sometimes a bit confused, being part of a Government that simultaneously says the only answer to the railroads is for the Government to take them over and the only answer to the Post Office System is to put them under a private corporation. I find this somewhat at cross purposes.

I would say, Mr. Williams, that I have been concerned for some time about policy with regard to the conflict that exists between the highway voters and users, and those who advocate mass transit. I feel for the new administration and the new Secretary of Transportation, in trying to resolve that problem in terms of problems of their cities.

I have gathered from reading what Secretary Volpe has had to say thus far: That the problem of the airports is just as acute, if not more so, than this problem. Again, in the best bipartisan manner of which I am capable, I look forward to the policy recommendations of the Department of Transportation with regard to this whole problem. I particularly appreciate the suggestions you made. Thank you very much.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPONG. Mr. Majer.

Mr. Majer, we are very pleased to have you here. We have corresponded with you over a period of time.

STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES MAJER, FAIRFAX COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS; ACCOMPANIED BY ROYCE SPENCE, FAIRFAX COUNTY INDUSTRIAL AUTHORITY, AND STEPHEN GELBAND, COUNSEL

Mr. MAJER. This is Mr. Royce Spence on my right, who will speak also on behalf of the Fairfax County Industrial Authority, and Mr. Stephen Gelband, who has been counsel for the industrial authority and the board in several matters of CAB, pertaining to Dulles. My name is Charles Majer. I am an elected member of the Urban Board of Supervisors of Fairfax County, and immediate past president of the Committee for Dulles. I am speaking today, however, as a member of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and will present this statement on behalf of that board.

First, we appreciate very much the opportunity of presenting our views to this committee.

The government of Fairfax County has steadfastly supported the development of Dulles International Airport. It is our belief that Dulles has the potential for becoming the primary port of entry and exit by air of passengers and cargo for the entire Washington, D.C.northern Virginia area. That potential, however, requires development by all concerned individuals, and bodies.

Two major problems today stand in the way of the proper development of Dulles, we feel. The airlines are not providing an adequate and balanced pattern of services to Dulles, and there is need to improve the ground transportation facilities to and from Dulles. Both of these factors cause substantial inconvenience to the passengers and shippers who are utilizing Dulles and seriously inhibit those who would like to use Dulles.

It is our belief that this committee can take affirmative action to remedy both of these difficulties. We urge that it seriously consider these matters.

AIRLINE SCHEDULING PATTERNS

First, in regard to airline scheduling patterns, it is clear that Dulles is not receiving its proper share of airline flights. Passengers can count on convenient direct round trip service at Dulles to and from other major U.S. air hubs, and only a scattering of foreign points. The remaining markets are either not directly served through Dulles at all, are served conveniently in one direction only, or are served inconveniently in both directions.

27-254-70-pt. 1-15

This pattern has resulted from the free choice of the airlines. It has continued even after the FAA imposed flight limitations at Washington National Airport. It will most likely be perpetuated for the foreseeable future unless steps are taken now by the Federal Government to require an improvement.

We believe this committee can directly assist in this effort by making clear its belief that the Civil Aeronautics Board can and should step in and exercise its jurisdiction over this subject. Our attorney, Mr. Gelband, informs us that the CAB has the legal power to act in this area.

Senator SPONG. I am very happy to have Mr. Gelband confirm my opinion in that.

Mr. MAJER. While our primary interest is improvement in the Dulles service pattern, I want to make clear that Baltimore's Friendship Airport would also benefit from such regulation on this very subject involving both Dulles and Friendship Airports was started a few years ago, but apparently was sidetracked. Reactivating that case may well be the way to start things moving again. The job the CAB faces may not be a popular one; but it is a responsibility that nevertheless must not be shirked.

GROUND TRANSPORTATION

The second major problem which we believe this committee should act on, concerns ground transportation to and from Dulles. Dulles is by no means inaccessible, nor is it very far removed from the people that require its use.

Just to digress a moment, travel to and from the Pentagon and State Department to Dulles can be accomplished without a traffic light on a four-lane divided freeway.

Dulles compares very favorably on these bases with most other large metropolitan areas. Dulles' problem is primarily that it suffers by comparison with Washington National Airport.

We believe that two courses of action to alleviate the time/distance problem are required at this time. First, all impediments must immediately be removed from extension of Interstate 66 into the District of Columbia. We understand that the State of Virginia is now ready and able to proceed with its share of the project. The problems involving the District of Columbia portion are well known to this committee, I am sure. We recognize that conflicting interests have caused delays, but we strongly urge this committee to use its good offices to allow this vitally needed project to proceed as quickly as possible.

RAPID RAIL TRANSIT

We also welcome consideration by the committee of proposals for rapid rail transit between downtown Washington and Dulles. Highspeed public transportation to and from Dulles is essential for the near future if the benefits of jet travel and supersonic transport are fully to be achieved.

CONCLUSION

Just one final note. I think we need to define the role of National Airport and its relationship and function in regard to the other

metropolitan area airports, and to the city of Washington and to the suburban Maryland and Virginia areas, before we go too far in committing large expenditures at National Airport.

I would like to introduced Mr. Royce Spence, a member of the Industrial Development Authority of Fairfax County, who can become a little bit more specific in some of the areas.

Senator SPONG. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Spence.

Mr. SPENCE. I testify today on behalf of the Fairfax County Industrial Authority of which I am an appointed member. I appreciate very much the opportunity to present this statement on a subject of vital interest to the authority.

Dulles International Airport is potentially one of the foremost assets of the Washington metropolitan area and the State of Virginia. Fairfax County is fortunate in having Dulles within its boundaries. We are seriously concerned, however, that this valuable asset is not being utilized to its fullest potential. In fact, it is vastly underutilized.

GROWTH OF DULLES

One of the primary goals of the Fairfax County Industrial Authority has been to encourage the growth of Dulles in every feasible way. To this end, we have actively participated in a series of Civil Aeronautics Board proceedings which have brought new airlines and additional schedules to Dulles. We have been taking the lead in this area for over 5 years now, working with other local civic and governmental groups. The major cases we have joined in, a number of which are still in process are :

United States-Caribbean-South America route investigation,
Piedmont Airways Dulles-New York proceeding,
Northeast-Bahamas service case,
Transpacific route investigation,

Bermuda service investigation,

Washington-Baltimore Airport investigation,

Southern Airways Eglin AFB-Dulles-New York proceeding,
Twin Cities-Milwaukee Long-Haul investigation,

Omaha-Des Moines Transcontinental service investigation,
Ozark Air Lines Dulles-New York proceeding, and

IATA cargo rate discrimination proceeding.

CAB procedures for awarding new routes, however, are very time consuming and only a very few such cases offer the possibility of improving service at Dulles. We will continue our participation in these cases, but we urge this committee to find a better means for dealing with this problem.

ALLOCATION OF SERVICES

Our experience has been that the problem is less the need for new services to the Washington area-for the Nation's Capital is indeed fortunate in having a generally excellent pattern of service—but more the need for a better allocation of available services among Washington's airports. The CAB started a proceeding to deal with