I think it was testified to before the purpose of the commission within the group is to resolve interfamily disputes, to set general overall policy and to ratify new leaders for the La Cosa Nostra.

Chairman NUNN. Do they actually act more or less as a board of directors and make a decision about who has what territory, that kind of thing?

Mr. NELSON. Only broad general decisions along those lines. The territory was staked out a long time ago. When we had a place like Atlantic City, which was a decaying area at one time, and then the State of New Jersey legalized casino gambling, the La Cosa Nostra very quickly moved to resolve how that territory would be split up. Mr. REVELL. Senator, the important thing here is that the commission is very susceptible to the various techniques available to law enforcement; to electronic surveillance, to physical surveillance, to penetration, and so forth. So they have taken means to minimize the possibility of the Government putting them into a conspiracy case.

They carry on their dealings on a very limited basis and generally by intermediaries or couriers. but also all of the negotiations do not involve the commission. Most family business does not. There are dealings between families and groups within families that do not require commission sanction. This is not a board of directors, as you would think of a corporation getting into the everyday dealings of every element of the organization. It is a loose confederation with this as a problem-resolving forum. It does act in that capacity to try to hold down violence between family groups and families.

Chairman NUNN. How many families are there all together in the La Cosa Nostra?

Mr. REVELL. Twenty-five active.

Chairman NUNN. You have only nine represented on the commission. Is that right?

Mr. NELSON. That is right.

Chairman NUNN. Do these positions rotate between families or do these families have permanent positions?

Mr. REVELL. Members of the commission speak for other families not represented.

Chairman NUNN. But these nine families are sort of locked in their position on the commission, their successors take their position, or does it rotate between the families?

Mr. REVELL. As Mr. Nelson testified earlier, the number has varied. At one time there were 12, now it is 9. It varied from time to time, but all the families have the ability to have representation before the commission.

Generally, a member of the commission will represent other families in business before the commission.

Mr. NELSON. All families west of the Mississippi contact the Chicago representative on the commission for access to the commission. Families east of the Mississippi contact the New York representatives to achieve access to the commission. Back in 1931 Cleveland was represented on the national Mafia commission. They were eliminated from the commission at one time or another and now are nine, and this number has been consistent for about the last 25 years.

Chairman NUNN. Senator Chiles, do you have any other questions?

Senator CHILES. No, sir.

Chairman NUNN. It is my understanding that you have indicated a willingness to go into executive session for more details and names. Is that right?

Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir.

Chairman NUNN. Are you prepared to do that today?

Mr. McWEENEY. Yes, sir.

Chairman NUNN. The subcommittee is complying with a request of the Justice Department to handle the names in executive session.

The subcommittee will have an executive session where we will get this testimony. Then we plan to have our staff on the subcommittee, in addition to corroborating it as thoroughly as we can with the Justice Department and the FBI, get independent corroboration. Then the subcommittee itself will decide as to the possible publication of the material, or whether or not it will be published, and certainly we will consider in that determination pending cases of the Justice Department and the FBI.

We will be consulting with them. We will not publish the material until such time as we have had corroboration and until such time, certainly, as the FBI and the Justice Department have given their testimony and our staff has had an opportunity to check that out.

Senator Chiles, I understand we have a vote at 12:30. Is that right? Senator CHILES. That is right.

Mr. REVELL, Senator, we have a document that has the agreed-upon testimony. We could submit that to you if you have procedures where you could receive that in executive session rather than the testimony, if you prefer that.

Chairman NUNN. I think we would prefer testimony.

Mr. REVELL. All right, sir.

Chairman NUNN. We will have a good many questions, and so forth. I am trying to check on Senator Percy's schedule and try to find a convenient time. I know you will need a break. We will take at least a break.

I would anticipate we would come back at 1:30. Does that give you enough time?

Without objection, the charts and other written information that has been examined here today will be admitted into the record.

[The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit Nos. 1A and 1B" for reference and follow:]

Chairman NUNN. Tomorrow morning we will begin hearings on the Kansas City violence problems and that hearing will probably take 2 days. We will be meeting in room 357 of the Russell Building at 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. If the witnesses could remain just a moment, while we are checking on Senator Percy's schedule.

The hearing this afternoon will be in executive session and the time. remains unknown.

[Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee was recessed to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, April 30, 1980.]