Mr. FULLER. I can't recall the details on that stuff, Mr. Sourwine. You gave me a date 4 years ago and ask me to recall a conference then. It's not fair. I can't remember the detail on that stuff.

Mr. SOURWINE. In this paragraph, you say, "He," meaning Mr. Mansfield, "stated that he found a strong sentiment in 'many places' for action along the lines we contemplate."

What was the action you contemplated?

Mr. FULLER. I don't remember.

The CHAIRMAN. It would probably be a prosecution, would it not? Mr. FULLER. I presume so, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. It wouldn't be too wild a guess?

Mr. FULLER. No. I would concur with you on that.

Mr. SOURWINE. You said, "I have had extraordinary luck in getting prima facia evidence in the Pasco County case particularly in the form of letters and other documents sent through the mail, with envelopes and cancellation dates. He"-Mansfield "characterized this stuff as very strong evidence."

What did you mean that you had extraordinary luck?

Mr. FULLER. I had found some letters that had a bearing on the Pasco County refunding.

Mr. SOURWINE. But you spoke of getting prima facie evidence. Mr. FULLER. Well, the letters being sent through the mail is certainly prima facie evidence, as I understand it.

Mr. SOURWINE. Did you mean evidence against the Crummer Co. and Mr. Crummer?

Mr. FULLER. I meant evidence involving that refunding in Pasco County.

Mr. SOURWINE. Evidence involving Mr. Crummer?

Mr. FULLER. Certainly.

Mr. SOURWINE. In the second paragraph of this letter, you said, "Second: Saw the Governor and got him and Giles Patterson together here yesterday." That was November 3, 1942. Can you recount the circumstances of how you got the Governor and Mr. Patterson together?

Mr. FULLER. I asked the Governor to invite him, and you got the letters there, and Patterson went down to Tallahassee.

Mr. SOURWINE. You wrote this letter from Jacksonville.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, was Mr. Patterson quite active? Mr. FULLER. You mean in this refunding thing?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. FULLER. No; he wasn't, Senator. He was not enthusiastic at all. He got interested when we began to talk about law and getting bond legislation, and did have a conference with the Governor and promised to draft some stuff; and as far as I know, never drafted it. Lost interest in it.

Mr. SOURWINE. Didn't you just tell us, sir, that he came up to Tallahassee but they never got together?

Mr. FULLER. I never got together. After that conference between the Governor and Patterson, the Governor suggested that Patterson and Clements and I get together. That never took place, I am sure, but the Governor and Patterson did confer, did have quite a talk. Mr. SOURWINE. Now, you realize this is November 3. This is a different date from the Tallahassee meeting.

Mr. FULLER. I don't remember the date of the Tallahassee meeting, Mr. Sourwine.

Mr. SOURWINE. Do you remember that this letter is dated Jacksonville, Florida, November 3?

Mr. FULLER. Yes.

Mr. SOURWINE. And this paragraph says, "Saw the Governor and got him and Giles Patterson together here yesterday"?

Mr. FULLER. All right. The letter speaks for itself.

Mr. SOURWINE. Did you get the Governor and Giles Patterson together?

Mr. FULLER. I said I did there [indicating the letter].

Mr. SOURWINE. In Jacksonville?

Mr. FULLER. In Jacksonville?

Mr. SOURWINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULLER. I don't know. They may have conferred here.

Mr. SOURWINE. Isn't that in fact the conference between yourself and Mr. Patterson and the Governor which had been earlier discussed?

Mr. FULLER. No. The Governor, Mr. Patterson, and I did not have a conference anywhere.

Mr. SOURWINE. So, if you got them together, it was at a conference at which you were not present?

Mr. FULLER. That's right.

Mr. SOURWINE. Would your assumption be, having read the letter, you did get them together at Jacksonville on November 2?

Mr. FULLER. I don't remember. I wouldn't assume that at all. I just don't remember.

Mr. SOURWINE. You don't know why you said "here," if it wasn't in Jacksonville?

Mr. FULLER. No; I don't know why. The letter speaks for itself. Mr. SOURWINE. I offer these letters for the record.

DEAR ARCHIE: This has been a most satisfactory trip.

First I took part in a series of conferences that has resulted in a very strong taxpayers, intervening suit being arranged for the Pasco-4 towns Federal suit ACL, SAL, Cummer Lumber Co., etc.

Second, saw the Governor and got him and Giles Patterson together here yesterday.

Third, long conference with Mansfield, the postal inspector. He has developed some good data on Lee County. He stated that he found a strong sentiment in "many places" for action along the lines we contemplate. I have had extraordinary luck in getting prima facie evidence in the Pasco County case particularly in the form of letters and other documents sent through the mailwith envelopes and cancellation dates. He characterized this stuff as “very strong" evidence. I have had or am having 3 photostat copies of all this date made—one for you, one for the Atty Gen., one for Mansfield. The expense will be so large I consider separate copies for each member unjustified unless you direct otherwise.

Mansfield again expressed a wish I complete the Okeechobee matter. I already have good data and because I have two good personal friends in the Okeechobee County official family hope to develop as good a case as we apparently now have in Pasco.

I have dictated about four-fifths of the Pasco story and will try to complete it-with photostats so that it will be in your hands the latter part of this week or at the latest the first of next. As the answers to the Pasco suit had to be filed by the 5th of Nov. I naturally gave that part of the work right-of-way until now. Sincerely yours, /s/ Walter P. Fuller, WALTER P. FULLER,

Investigator.

SEPTEMBER 26, 1942.

Hon. STUART GILLIS,

Assistant Attorney General, Tallahasssee, Florida:

DEAR SENATOR: On Monday I am going to Pasco County.

Mr. Potts and I have reason to believe that the 1% "kicker" coupons in the Pasco County situation were never actually attached to the Pasco County refunding bonds. Although the validation procedings and the Lothrop vs. Pasco County Et A., bill of complaint is very emphatic that they were.

I plan to interview county officials and the mayors of four cities involved to find out as nearly as may be what the actual situation was and is as to this point. I will also inquire as to any other matters that occur to me as likely to be of value to you in meeting this situation.

I find that I brought off with me your copy of the bill of complaint. My memory is that you have two copies and I knowMr. Potts has a copy. However, if you need this copy, please wire me Western Union, Dade City. I am writing Mr. Lea today for a copy for myself.

DEAR MR. WALTER: I am returning the information which you sent me, relative to Pasco County.

Saturday night I ran into John Sutton in Tampa, who told me that he was going to have Tom Adams of Jacksonville attend to this matter, thereby relieving us of the burden of this litigation.

I told him that you had prepared the information upon which Mr. Gillis had written his opinion that it was your purpose to go to Tallahassee one day this week for a conference with Mr. Gillis and I thought that Tom Adams ought to be present at that conference. Mr. Sutton said that he would get in touch with Mr. Adams today and would either contact you or this office, so I am sending him a copy of this letter, so that, in the event I am out of the office, he can reach you directly.

Very truly yours,

c/c Mr. John B. Sutton.

JRB: gv.

Enc.

/s/ JIM BUSSEY.

Hon. STUART GILLIS,

DADE CITY, FLA., Wed., Sept. 30, 1942.

Attorney General's Office, Tallahassee, Fla.

DEAR MR. GILLIS: This Pasco-Four Cities situation has all the earmarks of being quite a situation indeed. Until now I have had opportunity only to take a quick look around and I want you to take things said in this letter as sometimes being impressions, guesstments, and impressions rather that firm statements of finally acceptable facts.

First, I assume that you have read the Bill of Complaint and the various exhibits.

A bit of background is nonetheless probably called for.

Crummer originated an exchange refund contract for Pasco in 1932, I think one of his original 6 contracts with which he initiated his Florida refund adventures.

On April 19, 1937, he wrote the Pasco Commissioners a letter outlining a County-4 towns refund contract substantially as eventually carried out. On April 12 the commission had given notice of intention to apply for special legislation permitting diversion of not to exceed $31,500 a year of gas money to the 4 towns. (Of course the entire proceeding was cut and dried and agreed on beforehand. For instance on the 17th the Board adjourned until the 19th, Crummer presenting a letter dated Orlando, April 19.)

On May 14th another special meeting adopted a 5-way refund contract (County-4 towns) dated May 4. This contract has one odd thing. In the first paragraph it describes Crummer Co. as “Fiscal Agent." Later on the description is "Limited Fiscal Agent."

This contract and the special act were eventually set aside by the courts, I am told. (Incidentally in this set-up there were no junior coupons. Just 4%

coupons on the bonds and the outright donation to the 4 towns of the gas money up to $31,500 a year.

This contract was followed with another dated Jan. 17, 1938, as referred to in the first part of the bill of complaint. I have not seen this yet but in this one Senator-Elect Brewton tells me Crummer carefully sets himself up as NOT the fiscal agent of the Political Units. I can't say yet as to this.

The subsequent trust agreements, etc., based on this are exhibited in the B of Complaint.

As far as I can find out until now the only help you will get in Pasco county defending this suit will be from Senator-Elect Brewton and Walter Gall, of Zephyr Hills. Gall, you probably know, and I think Brewton is aces. He is a not prosperous lawyer, is further handicapped by being city attorney for New Port Richey; but he is heart and soul in this fight. Today, for instance, he and the county prosecuting attorney went to Tampa to see the Federal Judge about an extension and to see Jim Bussey of the ACL and others. What they have in mind is to have a strong group of taxpayers intervene. In this connection Walter Gall today went to Jax, saw the associate of Giles Patterson (I forget his name. Is it Donovan?) and is very hopeful about that angle of the matter.

Perhaps I had better give you a brief sketch of the cast in our little play. F. I. Grey, mayor of New Port Richey, Real estate agent. Knows little' about the deal, cares about the same. A Crummer man.

Dr. J. T. Bradshaw, mayor of San Antonio. An elderly doctor appointed interim mayor about 2 months ago. Knows nothing Referred me to the town's attorney, Arthur L. Auvil. Looked at his watch (it was about 4 P. M.), "No, it's too late today, the Judge will already be drunk." I guess the judge's watch went haywire, because he is still drunk. Anyhow, when sober, his fingers itch. B. F. Parsons, Mayor of Zephyr Hills. ACL station agent. A Crummer man. (I have known him six years.) O. L. Dayton, Jr., attorney. He is also County Judge. All three Daytons are Crummers.

F. M. Ashbrook, mayor Dade City. Standard Oil agent. Mayor for many years. A crummer man, and what's worse, a Senator-eject John Burks man, Dayton, attorney.

W. K. Barnes, attorney for County Commission. A Crummer., I tried for half an hour yesterday to get a few drops of information out of him. Nary a drop. This morning while I conferred with Brewton, Barnes in the next office conferred with Roy Crummer, no less.

Stanley Cochrane, chairman of the board, and an ardent Crummerite, did not run for reelection.

Of course you realize this suit plunges right at the heart of the entire political struggle of this community. John Burks is or was-the outstanding Crummer man of the Legislature for 4 sessions. In his race for the Senate last Spring Crummer kicked in $11,000. Crummer also spent several thousands defeating Mr. B. A. Thomas, county commissioner, and the sole opponent on the board to the Crummer program.

Brewton and Gall (Or is it Galt?) are hoping to get the two railroads, the Crummer Lumber Co., Wayne Thomas, of Plant City, the two telegraph companies, the two telephone companies, the Express Company, etc., in the property owners' suit.

I saw Mr. Price, president of the Bank. Mr. Potts and I have had considerable curiosity about the Junior coupons. All through the proceedings and in the validating decree of Judge Hobson it consistently and plainly talks of the Junior coupons being "attached" to the bonds. Potts told me that none of the various bonds and coupons the Board has received showed any signs of "attachment." Mr. Price has all of the junior coupons except those few that have been paid. They never were attached to the bonds. They couldn't have been. Each sheet of coupons is bound separately just as an ordinary bond is. I of course don't know whether this is important or not.

Mr. Price gave me a memo of payments received from the Chase National as follows:

You will note that the contract bound New Port Richey to buy its bonds with its share of the money exclusively from Crummer. Market on the bonds at that time was 25 to 30. Also that the other towns had to buy bonds and coupons from Crummer for delinquent taxes and liens at 50-55-60. Market on these ranged at that time from about 15 to about 35. (Except San Antonio, where Crummer owned the entire issue, which he bought at 8 or 10 flat.)

Please advise if you want information on any particular point or matter. I am at the Edwinola hotel. (The hotel is worse than it sounds.)

Please forgive the typing. It's the best a Royal Junior and I and a damned uncomfortable chair with wabbly legs could do.

Very truly yours.

WALTER P. FULLER.

Honorable GILES J. PATTERSON,

TARPON SPRINGS, FLORIDA, November 13th, 1942.

Attorney at Law, Jacksonville, Florida.

DEAR GILES: I have just received a letter from the Governor in which he states that he has had a conference with you concerning certain angles of the work being done by my committee. I have just forwarded to you by express the transcript of the testimony that was taken in Sarasota. Also I have just contacted Walter Fuller by telephone, and he will get in touch with you and will furnish you all of the information he has. Also, please feel free to call on Mr. Fuller for anything that you might need in the future, as he is very anxious to assist you in any way that he can.

I am very happy that you are going to be actively associated in this work, because with a man of your ability and legal training you can certainly be of great assistance to us and I feel as if we will be able to bring about the passage of some laws that will be of benefit to the people. If at any time you need me, just let me know.

With kindest personal regards and best wishes, I am

Sincerely yours,

AC/sch.

Chairman, Bond Refunding Investigation Committee.

Mr. SOURWINE (showing letter). Did you send that letter, sir?
Mr. FULLER. That is not my signature.

Mr. SOURWINE. Who signed the letter?

Mr. FULLER. Probably my secretary, Evelyn Carpenter.
Mr. SOURWINE. Do you remember dictating it?

Mr. FULLER. Wait until I read it. [Reads letter.] No, I don't remember the letter.

Mr. SOURWINE. Do you think it was sent by your direction?

Mr. FULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SOURWINE. I offer it for the record.