Mr. BALL. No, Mr. Sourwine; I think not. I think you are referring to my reply to one of your questions or one of the chairman's questions about control of the Florida National Bank of Jacksonville and not of the group as a whole. The CHAIRMAN. No, you are mistaken. I asked you about the control. I think you had better answer the question, Mr. Ball. Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I will turn to your question, and I think you will see that you did ask me about control. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I asked you about control. Mr. BALL. It was control of the Jacksonville bank and not the group. And if you will bear with me, I think I will find the question. in just a moment. Do you catch it, Mr. Sourwine? Mr. SOURWINE. I do not yet, .sir; I am looking. I might say for the record that I was not attempting to quibble on what precisely was said, but simply to get the record straight to begin a new chain of questions. Mr. BALL. In the most of the Florida national banks, the du Pont estates does own the control. Senator EASTLAND. What about just asking the question? I do not see how we are gaining anything by the nature of the question yesterday. The CHAIRMAN. I do not either. I know what the record was, and it is all right. Let us go ahead; whatever it is, it is. Senator EASTLAND. Certainly. Mr. BALL. Thank you. Mr. SOURWINE. To make the record straight, is it true that the Florida group is controlled by the du Pont interest? Mr. BALL. Yes. Nineteen of those banks, I think-the actual controlling stock. A majority of the stock is owned by the du Pont estate. In the Jacksonville bank-the du Pont estate owns a little less than one-third of the stock of the Florida National Bank of Jacksonville. Mr. SOURWINE. In what way do the du Pont interests, then, control the Florida National Bank of Jacksonville? Mr. BALL. Only by the ownership of something less than 33% percent of its stock. Mr. SOURWINE. In other words, the other stock ownership is so scattered that the ownership of that 33% percent gives the du Pont interests effective control? Mr. BALL. I think you would call it working control, though the same officers that were in the bank at the time they acquired something less than 333 percent of the stock are still officers of that bank. Senator EASTLAND. Does the du Pont estate control that bank? Mr. BALL. Senator Eastland, I would answer-practically I would think so; yes. Mr. SOURWINE. I was brought to that line of questioning, Senator Eastland, because my intention was directed, in going through my files last night, to this little booklet, Southern Bankers Directory, in which appears the advertisement: "Banks of the Florida National Group" and the statement "controlled by the Alfred I. du Pont interests." Senator EASTLAND. He has testified to that. Mr. SOURWINE. Yes, sir. My memory of yesterday was not too clear and I wanted to bring it out. Mr. Ball, we discussed yesterday, at some length, a letter from Mr. Roger Main, addressed to the Post Office Department. That letter was placed in the record yesterday. You will recall that letter mentions a prior trip. That is, a trip prior to the date of the letter, made by Mr. Main in company with a Mr. H. S. Wheeler, to Washington, to the office of the chief inspector. I do not recall whether I asked you precisely yesterday if you had any knowledge of that trip, either at the time it was made, or just prior, or immediately subsequent thereto. Did you? Mr. BALL. Mr. Sourwine, I am sure that shortly after that trip I probably knew about it, though I certainly do not at this time recollect any conversations about that trip. Mr. SOURWINE. Is that Mr. H. S. Wheeler the same Mr. Wheeler who is a partner in Leedy, Wheeler Co.? Mr. BALL. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. SOURWINE. Now, Mr. Ball, we discussed yesterday Mr. Main's connections with your enterprises, and if my memory serves me, you stated that he was a director of the Jacksonville bank? Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Mr. SOURWINE. And treasurer of the St. Joe Paper Co. and all its subsidiaries? Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Mr. SOURWINE. Did he hold those positions at about the time of the writing of this letter, which was May 30, 1941? Mr. BALL. Yes, sir; I think he did. Mr. SOURWINE. Did he hold any other positions that you know of at that time, sir? Mr. BALL. At that time, he may have been president of one of the banks. Mr. SOURWINE. That is, one of the Florida National Group? Senator EASTLAND. Well, was he president or was he not? Do you remember? Mr. BALL. 1941-I do not remember, Senator Eastland. He is now president of one of the banks, and I know he was president of one of them, another one of the group, some years back. Whether it was 1941 or 1942, I could not tell. Senator EASTLAND. Was he engaged in your activities in purchasing bonds? Had you given him any such authority? Mr. BALL. No, sir; except such as he would have as an officer of the individual bank. Mr. SOURWINE. Well, I was interested, right along the line of Senator Eastland's question, whether he was an officer of the bank at that time or a director of the bank at that time. Mr. BALL. He was a director of at least three banks at that time, Mr. Sourwine; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who is this? Mr. SOURWINE. Roger Main, Senator. Senator EASTLAND. I think you ought to show what his duties were; whether he was acting within the scope of his authority. Mr. SOURWINE. I was attempting to do that, Senator. Senator EASTLAND. All right. Mr. SOURWINE. Was he a trust officer of any one of those banks? is. Mr. BALL. No, sir; he was not. Mr. SOURWINE. Was he a fiscal officer of any one of those banks? Mr. BALL. Possibly. I do not quite understand what "fiscal" officer Mr. SOURWINE. Possibly I am not using the banking terms, not* being a banker. I Mr. BALL. He held the position of president of one of the banks, and I rather think he was president of one of the banks in 1941. know he is now, and I rather think he was in 1941. Mr. SOURWINE. Do you know which bank that was, sir? Mr. BALL. It would have either been Starke at that time it would have been Starke, if he was president. The Florida Bank at Starke. Mr. SOURWINE. I want to ask, Does he switch around from one bank to another so fast that you cannot keep track of him? Mr. BALL. Mr. Sourwine, let me explain: As president of the bank he is only what you might term a "stop-gap" president. We do not have anyone in the bank that the directors at that time were prepared to elect, so we put in somebody to have the title. Mr. Main, as president of the Bank of Starke, never drew any salary; as president of the Florida National Bank of Pensacola today he is not drawing a salary. Mr. SOURWINE. He draws a salary from the St. Joe Paper Co.? Mr. SOURWINE. He is sort of a trouble shooter as far as the banks are concerned? Mr. BALL. I would not say trouble shooter. Just kind of fills the gap. Mr. SOURWINE. President pro tem? Mr. BALL. That is right. I am the same kind of president of the Bank of Orlando. Mr. SOURWINE. Tell me, sir, did Mr. Main have any employment outside of the du Pont interests in 1941? Mr. BALL. Well Senator EASTLAND. Was he an employee of the du Pont estate? Mr. BALL. Employed by the St. Joe Paper Co., Senator Eastland. Senator EASTLAND. And the du Pont estate owns the stock. That is a corporation? Mr. BALL. That is a corporation. The du Pont estate owns approximately 75 percent of the stock of the corporation. Senator EASTLAND. I see. Mr. SOURWINE. Are you through, Senator? Senator EASTLAND. Yes. Mr. SOURWINE. Referring to the question: In 1941, did Mr. Main have any employment outside of the du Pont interests? Mr. BALL. I do not think so. If he had any, I never heard of it. Mr. SOURWINE. You would not have permitted it if you had known of it? Mr. BALL. I do not think so. I would have disagreed with him most heartily on outside employment. Mr. SOURWINE. Do you know, Mr. Ball, who paid Mr. Main's expense on his trip to Washington in 1941? Mr. BALL. I do not know, Mr. Sourwine, but I expect it was the St. Joe Paper Co. Mr. SOURWINE. Well, on that basis, would it not be fair to assume that that trip by Mr. Main was in line with his official business, and that he was, when he came to Washington, acting in his official capacity? Mr. BALL. Mr. Sourwine, I would assume that he came to Washington on business for the St. Joe Paper Co. but not necessarily to see the post office authorities. He had not been instructed by the board of directors or the executive committee of that company to see the postal authorities. That I am positive of. Mr. SOURWINE. But they paid his expenses for the trip; that is, the St. Joe Paper Co. ? Senator EASTLAND. Do you actually know whether they paid his expenses? Mr. BALL. No; I do not, Senator Eastland. Senator EASTLAND. Guessing at it? Mr. BALL. It may have been on one of the trips that he takes to see his parents, who live in the State of Maryland. Senator EASTLAND. Do you actually know what he came here for? Mr. BALL. No, sir; not at this time I do not. Mr. SOURWINE. Perhaps I should tell you this, Mr. Ball: The other evidence that we have in the record indicates that the various papers referred to in this letter as having been left by Mr. Main and Mr. Wheeler when they visited the Post Office Department prior to this letter and on May 21 are papers relating to $117,000 worth of bonds of Lee County and that the fraud which Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Main alleged in this letter and at the time of their conference revolved around that $117,000 worth of bonds. Can you tell us who owned that $117,000 worth of bonds at that time? Mr. BALL. I cannot, Mr. Sourwine, but I think I can tell you this: It was not the Florida National Group of banks or any of the corporations owned by the Alfred I. du Pont estate or the estate itself. Mr. SOURWINE. You know that to be true? Mr. BALL. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge we have never owned any Lee County bonds. Senator EASTLAND. You need not take this down: You speak of the Alfred I. du Pont estate and the du Pont estate. Are they the same thing? Mr. BALL. The same thing, Senator Eastland. The CHAIRMAN. Right at this point, to clarify a matter that I do not think was as clear as it should be-it was brought up by counsel a few moments ago—I have had occasion to look at this little booklet here entitled, "Southern Bankers Directory 1946 Florida," and on page 130, I think that that and some following pages should go in the record as clarifying the statements made by the witness on yesterday in which he said he thought he could name the banks from Banks of the Florida National Group. Controlled by the Alfred I. du Pont interests. Offer complete correspondent service in Florida. Intimately serving 17 key centers of Florida commerce, agriculture, and industry * The names of the banks, commencing with the "Florida National Bank" at Jacksonville and going down to and including the "Florida Bank" at Stark and "Florida Bank at Port St. Joe" Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Then the next page, page 132, captioned "Florida National Group" with a picture, of course, that cannot go in the record, showing the key positions, as so termed, occupied, where these banks are located. "The Atlantic National Bank of Jacksonville," is that the same? Mr. SOURWINE. No, sir; that is not. The CHAIRMAN. That has nothing to do with it. Then, here comes the "Florida National Bank of Jacksonville" and this man Main, that you have been questioning about, appears: "Roger L. Main," among many others, under the caption "Directors." Mr. BALL. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. So I think that those pages should go in the record. We cannot put the graph in the record, but the rest will go in the record. (The pages referred to in the booklet are as follows:) SPECIAL EDITION THE SOUTHERN BANKERS DIRECTORY, 1946 Standard Volume contains complete lists for the following states: Controlled by the Alfred I. du Pont Interests offer complete Correspondent Service in Florida Intimately serving seventeen key centers of Florida Commerce, Agriculture and Industry [Page 131] Florida National Bank of Jacksonville Florida Bank at Orlando Florida National Bank at Lakeland Florida National Bank at Ocala Florida National Bank at Belle Glade Florida Bank at Chipley Florida National Bank at Pensacola Florida National Bank at Key West Florida National Bank at Coral Gables Florida Bank at Fort Pierce Florida Bank at Starke Florida Bank at Port St. Joe |