how much Dr. Ronan would have to pay as income tax on receipt of this money if it had been for services rendered. In other words, going the gift tax route, rather than earned income to him, now what would be the difference in the amount of taxes?

Do you have any idea?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I don't know what his bracket was. But that would be easily obtainable. So if you are thinking of it from the point of view of the Government, whether the Government would have gotten more money from a gift tax than they would from an income tax, I have to point out that I paid the income tax on the money first before I gave it to him. Then having paid the income tax, I then had to pay a gift tax in addition.

Senator ALLEN. I understand that. But still if he had been in your employ, and he had received it, even if you had originally received it as income and paid an income tax on it, it would be subject to income tax to him, if he earned it.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That is correct.

Senator ALLEN. You don't have any idea of the difference between the gift tax and the income tax?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. No. But we could figure it out. I will let you know," sir. I will find it out and let you know. But he was not in my employ. He was in the employ of the State, as you know.

Senator ALLEN. Now, on these other loans aggregating some $3 million or so, how many of these individuals ever made payments on principal during the years that you were advancing these sums to them?— and calling them loans, of course.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I am looking at the list I have in my paper that I submitted to you today.

Senator ALLEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROCKFELLER. James Gaynor-I think that that loan has been paid off.

Ed Logue-part of it has been paid off, and the remainder I antici pate will be.

Robert Anderson-the loan was paid off.

Jack Wells-the bulk of the loan has been paid off.

In the case of L. Judson Morhouse, the loan which my brother made to him was paid off in full. My loan was partly paid down, and I forgave him the rest, after I left the government.

Senator ALLEN. How much would that aggregate, that has been repaid?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. These were the largest amounts. I would say probably, if you take an aggregate, one-third of the loans that I made were paid off.

Senator ALLEN. About $2 million or so, then?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Were not. That is correct.

Senator ALLEN. Now, turning to another subject, I notice in your statement this morning you enunciated a lofty concept that it is the voice of the people that ultimately determines everything. And certainly I agree with that. But I notice in your statement that during the last 18 years you have personally contributed to political parties and campaign committees some $3,265,000, two-thirds of which went to your own campaign. That is on page 20.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator ALLEN. Then your three brothers and your sister contributed

to your campaigns some $2,850,000, which would then run the two together somewhat over $6 million. Then your stepmother

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Would that not be about-you mean to my campaign?

Senator ALLEN. No.

Political campaigns.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Correct, $6 million.

Senator ALLEN. Then your stepmother averaged about $1.5 million per campaign.

Now, would that be for gubernatorial campaigns, and how many Presidential campaigns?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. It was a total of about $11 million.

Senator ALLEN. She contributed around $11 million?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator ALLEN. And then some $5 million, then, for your campaign, from yourself and your immediate family?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes.

But I think, in all fairness, even though you did not ask for it, there were additional expenditures which, under the law, I could make directly, which were not contributions for campaigns, such as research on issues, which, as Senator Hatfield knows, is a weakness of mine, national, international, local; travel expenditures, personnel who would keep in touch with the party around the country, what was going on-not that it did me any good, but I kept in touch.

These expenditures, I would say, over the 17 years, might have come to $5 million.

So I think you ought to add

Senator ALLEN. In addition to

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. In addition to the two figures you have mentioned. Senator ALLEN. In addition to the $5 million or $6 million and the $11 million?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That is correct.

Senator ALLEN. An additional $5 million?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That is correct.

Senator ALLEN. So, somewhat over $20 million?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Correct.

Senator ALLEN. That has gone from Rockefeller funds into political campaigns, the great bulk of which for your own campaigns.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator ALLEN. Is that correct?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes, sir.

Senator ALLEN. Well, it looks like, then, that the voice of the people expressing itself on your staying in office was influenced to some extent or at least encounraged, by massive sums spent in in your behalf?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That would be a fair assumption, based on the figures you have just given.

I should point out that I won four State campaigns, lost three national, probably spent more on the national than I did on the State; that these expenditures were not to buy votes.

Senator ALLEN. I understand that.

You spoke of large media campaigns.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That is right.

Senator ALLEN. That would influence the voice of the people being expressed in your behalf, I assume?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Well, the people are pretty smart, and if they see someone on television, if he is a cluck, they are not going to go with him.

So, I have to assume, then, that you run a risk going-I do not mean you, excuse me, Senator-I mean one runs a risk of going on television, because it is a very revealing medium.

Senator ALLEN. Well, now, do you feel that you could have survived in your gubernatorial races without this vast infusion of family money in your campaigns?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Well, that is a good question.

The first campaign, I spent $1.7 million, running against Governor Harriman, which, in the light of today's expenditures, seems modest. I think it is fair to say that the gentleman who beat my Lieutenant Govornor spent $2,300,000 in his primary alone. This is by published report.

So this whole operation, as Congress has so wisely understood, is getting out of hand. I mean the costs are just getting astronomical. We have 18 million people in the State of New York. I honestly do not feel that by any stretch of the imagination in the four campaigns that I ran, that it would be fair to say that I bought their votes.

I communicated with them as best I could through the media. But I would really have to sort of stand aside a little bit.

But I will say to you

Senator ALLEN. Getting your good qualities before the electorate through the vehicle of the media is what you did?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Thank you, sir.

But I have to say to you, sir, that the members of my family are much relieved by the legislation you all have passed. [Laughter.] Senator ALLEN. One final question.

Do you feel that the results of the 1974 gubernatorial election in New York were, in any sense, a referendum on your policies as Governor of New York over the 15 years preceding that time?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I really do, and I brought these clippings simply to show

you.

I was always accused of having money and spending money. And this was not something that was hidden. It was in the papers, the reports were there, the opposition candidates brought it out, made everything they could out of it. And I have to think that here was a little feeling on the part of the public-"Well, he has it already and, therefore, he is not going to steal it when he gets in office."

I hate to say that, because it sounds cynical. But there has been a little of that now.

I think other elements have come in, which vou have brought out, which have been brought out in this discussion here today, which has caused the action by the legislature, and I think it is wise.

But I do think that one has to watch out in this country for money that is not open monev, but that comes through all kinds of channels, and there are a great many verv smart people who can channel monev that does not show. And I think we have got to watch out for that in America.

Senator ALLEN. Well, vou know the limitation now on the amount the candidates for President can spend on their own behalf is $50,000. Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes, sir, I do.

Senator ALLEN. Would that trouble you, such a low limit?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Well, I have got to tell you that by the time you employed a secretary and an assistant, and have taken one trip around the country, you would have spent your money. So I do not know how anyone is going to get elected in the future. That is really only his own expenditures.

I really feel very strongly that the present laws favor those of us who have already become to be known by the American people. I would think that a person, a young person, or any person, who now wanted to run for office, who is not known, is going to have a very tough time getting known.

Senator ALLEN. In other words, this is probably an incumbent's bill. Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I did not go that far. I was putting it more in terms of those already in the public eye.

Senator ALLEN. Thank you very much, Governor Rockefeller. My time is up.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Williams.

Senator WILLIAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to return to the Lasky situation, perhaps briefly.

As I recall your testimony this morning, the whole subject of the book came to you, and I gather you dealt with it, most casually. Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Unfortunately.

Senator WILLIAMS. The first conversation was with Wells. And he mentioned Lasky as a possible author of a book. You said you did not know Lasky, had never met Lasky.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That is correct. I did not say that to him. I said that to the Senate.

Senator WILLIAMS. You told us that this morning.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Right.

Senator WILLIAMS. Did you know anything of Lasky the author? Mr. ROCKEFELLER. No. I have subsequently learned that he has written some other books.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, I wondered

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Less complimentary than the one about Mr. Goldberg.

Senator WILLIAMS. He wrote, "JFK-the Man and the Myth." "Robert F. Kennedy-The Myth and the Man." [Laughter.]

Senator WILLIAMS. Both obviously were the dredging up of unflattering material, real or imagined. Did Wells know anything about Lasky, do you know?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Well, seeing he was his client, I have to assume that he did.

Senator WILLIAMS. Then I would imagine we could almost take notice that he knew that Lasky had a record as an author of books about political people.

Well, the first observation I make, and really it is an observation, and it is a concern-it impresses me that in this connection, you at a minimum greatly underestimate the authority of your word, even casually given, because out of this casual discussion, as you saidthat it was 20 minutes out of a lifetime-34 years of public service. I do not know how long it took our staff to research out all of the facts, but it comes up looking like one of these bureaucratic chartsI mean the money. It starts easily enough-Laurance S. Rockefeller, New York City, $65,000, sole investor.

And then it goes down through all of the refinements, sievings, and

intermediaries that Senator Byrd described in his questioning. This was just your casual word-well, you will have so-and-so speak to your brother.

So this is an underestimation of authority. I think you would generalize from that now, would you not, the same thing?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Could you add friendship, because my brother did it, I am confident, and responded only because of his friendship for me. I had no authority over my brother. It was friendship for me that he responded.

He then had the authority. So I am not trying to get away from the word authority. He then invoked the authority which caused the action to be taken.

Senator WILLIAMS. And put a lot of people to work on a very complicated arrangement to, as you say, shield the Rockefeller name. The word launder was used. So I stayed away from that. But was that not basically what you said-to shield the Rockefeller name?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. To avoid the identification of the Rockefeller name so that other possible investors would not be discouraged from coming in.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, now, there I

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I will accept your word, because I do not wantit is a small-I mean I withdraw my point because

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, I do not want to be argumentative. But I will tell you-many people would interpret the shielding as a way to hide the Rockefeller name from a book that was going to be derogatory, because the man had a record of writing derogatory books.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. I accept shield. I accept the word shield. Senator WILLIAMS. And you say do not discourage other investors. Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Right. But I accept your word shield. And I go back, Senator, to the fact that it was my original mistake. I was not doing my job as either a Governor or a candidate in line with my own fundamental beliefs in the family.

I should have said, "Look, forget it, Jack, do not touch it with a 10-foot pole," and the whole thing would have been over. And that was my fault.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, I think my next question would go to Mr. Wells, who will be a witness, because it looks to me as though someone knew something might well be thought of, or designed to be a dirty trick, this book. And I excuse you from this.

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. No; please do not. I take the full responsibility, because

Senator WILLIAMS. You did not know Lasky. But I think you underestimated, and-treated it casually, is that right?

Mr. ROCKEFELLER. Yes. I treated the whole thing casually, because I do not think much of political biographies. And only those few who read them get excited. The public frankly, in my mind, does not read that kind of book because they are too sophisticated.

Senator WILLIAMS. I think it is particularly worthy, and I want to get off this to other more important things I think it is worthy that this particular process has been explored. It is useful for others. Mr. ROCKEFELLER. That was a major mistake on my part. As I said, it is the thing in 34 years which I am most embarrassed, and particularly about my brother.