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in the rush to buy it, I am very sorry to say. If Mr. Goldberg had just attacked the book; that was all the book needed. Just a little help.

Senator Cook. But I noticed, as a matter of fact, that you raised two points: No. 1, that if he had attacked it then, obviously the sales would have gone up; and No. 2, you preface this with "obviously that would have not been desirable" if Mr. Goldberg had been elected Governor.

There was one thing, though, he at least did outsmart you, he joined you: he wrote a book of his own. And there is an article here that shows that that book was just as serious a flop as the book that you wrote.

Mr. WELLS. It was not nearly as good as the Lasky book, because he got that one out in about 10 days.

Senator Cook. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Byrd.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Mr. Wells, did you or anyone from your firm of Rogers and Wells contact Mr. Jacovini

Mr. WELLS. When? When, sir?

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. I beg pardon.

Mr. WELLS. I beg your pardon, I should not have broken in.
Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. All right.

Did you or anyone from your firm of Rogers & Wells contact Mr. Jacovini to inform him that the FBI would be coming to see him, to question him about this matter?

Mr. WELLS. No, that was not the purpose of the call, as I think I testified before, Senator. That was

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. But-but was he informed by you or anyone from your firm that the FBI would be coming to interrogate him? Mr. WELLS. Yes, he may well have been, because when the FBI wanted to talk to me, I regarded him as the client, being the successor to all the rights and interests of the dissolved corporation.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. So you

Mr. WELLS. And I—and we called-we called Mr. Jacovini's office down in Philadelphia.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. When you say "we", who called?

Mr. WELLS. Mr. Sheehy called him.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. At your instructions?

Mr. WELLS. At my request.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Yes.

Mr. WELLS. And they-he was on vacation, as I recall it, motoring through New England, and finally he called back.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Why did you instruct Mr. Sheehy to call Mr. Jacovini?

Mr. WELLS. Because I regarded him as the client, and I wished to get the client's release before-before I talked to any of the investigating officials, because I did not want him to come against me later and say, look, I never released you from the attorney-client privilege; that the privilege is for the client to assert, and ethics-not only ethics, but the law requires me to get clearance before I start talking about the client's business.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. You did not talk with Mr. Jacovini personally, yourself?

Mr. WELLS. No, sir.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. What was the date of the dissolvement of the corporation?

Mr. WELLS. I think it was October 29, 1971.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. To whom did you send the bill for your services?

Mr. WELLS. Well, I sent it to the corporation, which means Mr. Collier, and he and the check was drawn.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. The check was drawn on the corporation? Mr. WELLS. Oh, yes.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. What was the date of the check?

Mr. WELLS. I really cannot recall, I think there were two checks. Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Two checks?

Mr. WELLS. Yes; there was one for $2,000 at one point, and $500 at another point.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Why was there not one check, why were there two checks?

Mr. WELLS. Well, as I recall it, there was there was a first bill in early 1971, and then when we had completed the work on the dissolution and so on, there was a final bill.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Can you supply for the record the date of the checks?

Mr. WELLS. Certainly, sir.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. All right.

Mr. WELLS. Cannot do it right now, but
Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. But you will.

Mr. WELLS. Yes, sir.

[The information referred to, subsequently supplied by Mr. Wells, is as follows:]

The dates of the subject checks were February 24, 1971, and October 6, 1971.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. I suppose you filled out the checks and sent them to Mr. Collier to sign?

Mr. WELLS. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Why did you not just fill out one check? Mr. WELLS. I think I have explained that, that the first charge was for services rendered up until the date of the check, whenever it was, in January or February 1971. The second was when we were closing out the corporation, there was a certain amount of work that had to be done in connection with the dissolution.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. What was the total amount-the total amount of money that was sent to Arlington House? Was that $60,000?

Mr. WELLS. Oh, no, it was $48,000, which

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. $48,000.

Mr. WELLS [continuing]. Was the price of the books, and then there was reimbursement for their expenses, and, as I recall, it is some. thing like $2,000.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Then the $10,000 for Mr. Lasky?

Mr. WELLS. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. And the $2,500 for yourself.

Mr. WELLS. The what?

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. And the $1,000 for Mr. Collier.
Mr. WELLS. Yes.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Were there any other expenses that you can recall?

Mr. WELLS. Yes; there were. There were a lot of miscellaneous expenses in connection with it. I do not have them in mind.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Can you supply those to the committee?
Mr. WELLS. Be delighted.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The information referred to, subsequently supplied by Mr. Wells, is as follows:]

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Senator HUGH SCOTT. There has been a question about failure to use the mails. I would like to comment: Failure to use the mails is not a conspiracy but rather a convenience.

I have no other questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Allen?

Senator ALLEN. I believe we need to move on, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Williams?

Senator WILLIAMS. Just one or two.

You knew, as you said, that Mr. Lasky had written other books on political figures, two on-two Kennedy books. "The Myth and the Man", which one was that?

Mr. WELLS. I think it was the first one was J. F. K., "The Man and the Myth"; and then it was R. F. K., "The Myth and the Man." I may have them in reverse, but that is my best recollection.

Senator WILLIAMS. What did Mr.

Mr. WELLS. He had also written a book on "The Ugly Russian," and he had "The Seeds of"-well, I guess that was by De Toledano. He had written a number of things.

Senator WILLIAMS. What did Mr. Lasky tell you about the sale of the other the Kennedy books? Did he-what figures did he give you on numbers of books sold?

Mr. WELLS. He really did not tell me. My understanding was that he did quite well on the first-on the first Kennedy book.

Senator WILLIAMS. Was this an important inquiry on your part, when you talked to him about doing a book on Goldberg?

Mr. WELLS. No, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. It was not?

Mr. WELLS. No: I had general knowledge of his background, as I explained, I had been a-I had known him for 10 years, and count him as a friend.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, on the business side, if this were to be an investment and with some hope of return, I think that that might well have been a good question to ask: Just how do these books sell?

Mr. WELLS. Well, I think when it comes to books, Senator, it depends upon the time and the mood and the subject and there are very few authors who sell automatically. I mean there are very few Jim Micheners and Herseys, and so forth, who just put their name on a book and they are going to get 100,000 sold.

I know a little bit about the publishing business, since I was counse! for a small publishing company for a number of years.

Senator WILLIAMS. Just, finally, one thing under the New York law, election law. When there is a campaign, a campaign piece, does the State law of New York require a disclosure of who paid for the campaign activity?

Mr. WELLS. Yes; if it is a political committee.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, what if it were an individual that had-. was putting up the money for a political billboard or leaflet, is it required that the source of money be indicated?

Mr. WELLS. I am not an election law expert, but I believe so. I do not want to be bound to this, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMS. Thank you.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wells, you defined quite clearly that part of the purpose of the book was in the hopes of making a financial profit, and assume you hoped to share in that profit, did you not?

Mr. WELLS. No, sir, I really did not. I do not think it is proper, really, for a lawyer to take a piece of a deal; I think he ought to be devoted to the corporation as a lawyer.

The CHAIRMAN. When you said it was a 60/40 venture for political purposes and for financial profit, you were not really quite correct as far as your motivation was concerned, then, if you did not hope to share in the profits of the book?

Mr. WELLS. No; because the question of-the question of commercial benefit, the question of profit was not one for me. It was aThe CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. WELLS [continuing.] question for the person putting up the

money.

The CHAIRMAN. So as far as you were concerned, your only hope was that this would be a political success, and it was for a political purpose as far as you personally were concerned?

Mr. WELLS. No; that is not-that is not correct, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, why did the financial success or failure matter to you, then?

Mr. WELLS. The-the

The CHAIRMAN. First, you were not a stockholder, were you? Mr. Jacovini was the sole stockholder.

Mr. WELLS. That's

The CHAIRMAN. You were neither an officer nor a director, because Mr. Collier, your friend, was all of the officers and all of the directors; is that correct?

Mr. WELLS. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I find it hard to follow you as to how the financial success would have particularly mattered to you, then. You were not a stockholder, you were not an officer or director

40-185 O-74-48

Mr. WELLS. I did not say it did. What I was saying was that the financial success would matter to the person putting up the money. The CHAIRMAN. I see. I see.

But as far as you were concerned, as the one who was promoting the book, the main purpose in your mind, then, was the political purpose?

Mr. WELLS. Generally speaking, I think that is correct. I mean I-and it was not just one campaign. I have been active in politics for a long time, and, frankly, I felt that Mr. Goldberg had-had come up there and he did not know the State and its problems, and he was not a bona fide resident under the-under the constitution of our State. I felt that his record should be reviewed and should be submitted to the people for their evaluation, and judgment.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Wells. We appreciate your testimony.

Mr. WELLS. Thank you, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Robert Orr.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. ORR, UPPER BLACK EDDY, PA.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Orr, will you please state your name, address, and occupation?

Mr. ORR. My name is Robert Orr. I live in Upper Black Eddy, Pa., and I am a lawyer. I am not now practicing.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1970 what was your position in Rockefeller Family Associates?

Mr. ORR. I was on the staff in counsel's office.

The CHAIRMAN. What type of services did you then perform for the Rockefeller family?

Mr. ORR. General legal service I think is perhaps the best way to characterize it with the exception of tax work.

The CHAIRMAN. How often were you in personal contact with Laurance Rockefeller?

Mr. ORR. Very seldom, as a general rule, it would be a special occasion.

The CHAIRMAN. How often were you in personal contact with Nelson Rockefeller?

Mr. ORR. Same answer: only on rare occasions.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1970 did you have occasion to meet with Mr. John A. Wells concerning a book critical of Arthur Goldberg? Mr. ORR. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did that meeting that place?

Mr. ORR. It took place initially according to my best recollection in the office of Mr. Donal O'Brien, counsel to the family.

My office is very close. was very close, to his in the same general suite of offices. And I was asked to come into Mr. O'Brien's office where I found Mr. O'Brien and Mr. Wells.

The CHAIRMAN. Who asked you to come into Mr. O'Brien's office? Mr ORR. Mr. O'Brien.

The CHAIRMAN. Was anyone else present other than Mr. O'Brien and Mr. Wells?

Mr. ORR. Not to my recollection.

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