Senator HARTKE. And when you were at NASA, were you in charge of personnel at all?

General MCKEE. I had nothing to do with personnel in NASA. Senator HARTKE. Were those under your immediate concern? General MCKEE. I had one person under my immediate command. That was a secretary.

Senator HARTKE. So you had no possible opportunity at NASA whatsoever to deal with the question of personnel, is that right? General McKEE. That is true.

Senator HARTKE. You did make some recommendations, though, as to operating of the agency. Was that outside of the field of personnel? General MCKEE. Yes. I did not get into the personnel business. Senator HARTKE. In your study as to the operation of NASA as to its efficiency, you did not consider personnel?

General MCKEE. Only in terms of the overall management of personnel, not personnel per se, this man, this man or this man.

Senator HARTKE. I think that is really what I am interested in. I think this is probably the concern of the committee and the Members of the Congress; that is, in your study as to the personnel itself—we are not dealing with personalities per se, but in your study of the operations, the organization operations as to efficiency, did you have recommendations to make concerning those people who were heading the various departments in NASA?

General MCKEE. No, I did not.

Senator HARTKE. Was it considered, or was this considered outside of the scope of your study?

General MCKEE. Not necessarily. I could have done it had I wished. I was perfectly free to make any recommendations to Mr. Webb that I saw fit.

Senator HARTKE. Well, did you study the question of efficiency of personnel as they were characterized?

General MCKEE. No, I did not, except in a general, overall way, in my many visits throughout NASA.

Senator HARTKE. It seems to me that if you were studying efficiency, was there any reason-let me correct that. Was there any reason why you would not study it? If you were studying the overall organization operations-as I understand this was the term used-as to efficiency, would not personnel come within the category, certainly, of the scope of such an investigation?

General MCKEE. In a broad sense, yes. I made certain recommendations to Mr. Webb, personally, on certain aspects of the overall personnel problem, but again without getting into a particular person running a particular project.

Senator HARTKE. The question as to how the NASA's overall organization operation could be improved did not, then, take into consideration the situation as to personnel, only incidentally, is that what your are saying?

General MCKEE. It was a part of it in terms of the management of the entire personnel force and how it should be organized, and so forth.

Senator HARTKE. Well, you realize that coming into this agency as a retired military man to a place which is required to be held by a civilian, you are going to have to be very astute in avoiding criticism, is that not true?

General MCKEE. I understand that very clearly, Senator. Senator HARTKE. Let me ask you this question, then: Would you lean over backward in either direction in regard to the operation of FAA-in other words, would you refuse to-

General MCKEE. You have raised the $64 question. I was asked this question in the House, and one of your distinguished colleagues in the House who made quite a speech to the effect that it was practically impossible for me, being a military man, not to finally militarize FAA, not to instinctively make recommendations of the military in FAA. When he got all through, I had to say that was not the problem, the problem was to not bend over backward too far. The problem was to be right, fair, and just in carrying out the provisions of the Federal Aviation Act.

Senator HARTKE. In other words, you feel that due to your training and background, you feel that possibly, instinctively, you might tend to lean toward the military, so now your fear is that

General MCKEE. No; I will not instinctively lean toward the military at all, because being a military man, everybody internally and people in the Congress are going to be looking at me. I am not going to be able to get by with one single thing in favor of the military, even if I wanted to, because you and the chairman and everybody else will "McKee, what are you doing over there?"

say,

Senator HARTKE. I do not think you are intentionally going to get by with anything. I think you are going to try to do a good job.

General MCKEE. I am going to try to do the best I can.

Senator HARTKE. I do not think the President would nominate anybody who would try to get by with anything. I do not personally think you are going to do that.

Would you willingly report to this committee any changes in personnel in the executive capacity or basically those of the higher ranking officials, any changes which occurred whereby a civilian was replaced by a military personnel?

General MCKEE. If this is the wish of the committee, I would do so, if I had to.

Senator HARTKE. Would you make such a report to this Senator from Indiana if such changes occurred whether they be military people who are on active duty or those who had completed their active duty tour?

General MCKEE. If you wish.

Senator MONRONEY. The law now requires us to have a report twice a year on that very subject.

Senator HARTKE. I want to say, I did not intend to bring this up, but I have been trying to find out ever since these hearings have been set from the Civil Service Commission, and the Civil Service Committee, of which both of us are members, and we have not been able to come up with any answer to this problem. I tried to find out in one category, and especially I am interested in this. I hoped with the confirmation of General McKee that he would make a determined effort to try to find out what is going on in the Medical Department there, because the information that I have personally and that which I received in the committee is at wide variance and I do not expect the general to know what the answer to that may be until he has a chance to be there and look into it.

52-323-65--5

General MCKEE. I promise you I will look into it and report.
Senator MONRONEY. This is the Medical Department of FAA?
Senator HARTKE. The Medical Department of FAA.

That is all the questions I have.

Senator MONRONEY. Any further questions, Senator Cannon?
Senator CANNON. No.

Senator MONRONEY. I would like to put into the record the letter from Senator A. Willis Robertson endorsing the nomination of General McKee.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your invitation to comment on the President's nomination of Gen. William F. McKee and David D. Thomas, of Virginia, to be Administrator and Deputy Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency. I have been privileged to know General McKee for a long time and also to know his father; a distinguished doctor now more than 80 years old, and his three brothers, all of whom are outstanding citizens.

I was present when the President presented a Distinguished Service Medal to General McKee, one of many medals which he has received and pinned a fourth star on his shoulder. At that time, the then Chief of Staff of the Air Force. General LeMay, told me that General McKee was one of the most brilliant men who had ever served in the Air Force.

I think that our Nation would be indeed fortunate to have General McKee serve as Administrator of the FAA and it will give me pleasure to vote for his confirmation.

I know Mr. Thomas by reputation only. All that I know about him is good and there is ample evidence that he is highly competent to discharge the duties of the office for which the President has nominated him.

With kind regards, I am,
Sincerely yours,

A. WILLIS ROBERTSON.

Senator MONRONEY. We will hold the record open for a few days subject to the chairman's wishes and wishes of the members of the committee.

We thank you very much, General McKee, for your courtesy in appearing here and answering the questions the Senators directed to you.

General MCKEE. Thank you.

May I make one statement before I depart?

Senator MONRONEY. Yes.

General MCKEE. I would like to express to the members of the committee and for the record my deep appreciation to Mr. Halaby for his understanding, his help, his assistance in this during the past several weeks. I must say I could not have asked for more. I want to express publicly to the committee my appreciation to him.

Senator MONRONEY. Thank you very much, General McKee.

I may say, since you mentioned Oklahoma City in the discussion about military participation in jobs formerly held by civilians, this occurred rather infrequently. It would happen about every 2 years and would entail two or three jobs. This is one of our big airbases and it did move both ways-civilians were replaced by military and military were replaced by civilians in a few jobs. I always found

General McKee, who was then Vice Chief of Staff, willing to sit down and discuss these matters, even though there were very few jobs at stake. The people were fearful that the positions would be militarized, but they never were militarized to any great degree. I merely say that because the name of Oklahoma City was brought up. We thank you very much for your appearance here.

Next we take up the confirmation of Mr. David E. Thomas to be Deputy Administrator.

Mr. Thomas, we appreciate your appearing before the committee. I will put your biography, which we have prepared for the committee, in the record at this point.

(The biographical sketch of Mr. Thomas follows:)

BIOGRAPHY OF DAVID D. THOMAS, FEDERAL AVIATION AGENCY

David D. Thomas, now Associate Administrator for Programs for the Federal Aviation Agency, has management responsibility in Washington headquarters for planning and coordinating the operating programs of FAA's Air Traffic Service, Flight Standards Service, Airports Service, and Systems Maintenance Service.

Mr. Thomas' appointment to the position on June 12, 1963, came on the occasion of a White House ceremony in which President Kennedy presented the 1963 President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service to Thomas and four other career Government officials. The highest honor bestowed upon career Federal employees, recipients are selected by the President. The award, which includes a gold medal and a citation, is given for exceptional achievement in advancing important domestic and international programs.

In April 1963 Thomas won the Laura Taber Barbour Award for Air Safety. Administered by the Flight Safety Foundation, the Barbour Award cited Thomas as "*** one of the outstanding experts in this country, if not in the world, on the management of air traffic control."

His first job in air traffic control was at the Pittsburgh Air Traffic Control Center in 1938. After a number of field assignments he was assigned to Washington in January 1946 to serve as Assistant Chief of the Airways Traffic Control Section in the Civil Aeronautics Administration. In June of the same year he became Deputy International Services Officer, holding this position for three and a half years before being assigned as Planning Officer of CAA. In October 1953, Mr. Thomas was made Acting Chief of the Planning Staff and less than a year later he was appointed Deputy Director of CAA's Office of Federal Airways. In July 1956, he was promoted to the position of Director, Office of Air Traffic Control. He was the first to head up the Air Traffic Service when the FAA was formed in 1958.

Mr. Thomas was born in New Castle, Tex., February 19, 1913. He attended the school of mechanical engineering at the University of Tennessee and the school of business administration at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. He is a member of the Institute of Aerospace Sciences, the Air Traffic Control Association, and other aeronautical organizations. He is a deacon in the Church of Christ, Falls Church, Va.

He holds a commercial pilot certificate with multiengine and instrument ratings and is a graduate of USAF fighter/interceptor and bomber aircraft indoctrination training courses.

Mr. Thomas resides at 3909 Rose Lane, Annandale, Va., with his wife, the former Dorothy Clark of Murfreesboro, Tenn., a daughter Frances, 22, and a son, David, 18.

Senator MONRONEY. I want to say personally that we are familiar with your splendid work as one of the veteran career officers of the FAA since its beginning, a man who is considered an expert in his line in all phases of air traffic control, flight standards, airports and systems maintenance.

I was delighted when the President appointed you, the senior career man in the FAA, to this position as Deputy Administrator. This is

a very important spot, since it deals primarily with the whole workings of our air traffic control system.

You might elaborate for the committee some of the years you have spent in this so we will have that on the record.

STATEMENT OF DAVID E. THOMAS, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF FEDERAL AVIATION AGENCY

Mr. THOMAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As my biography shows, I began my career in 1938 in air traffic control. I worked in quite a few sections of the country in air traffic control and in our regional offices and the Washington office. For the past 2 years, I have been charged in the position of Associate Administrator for Programs, I have been charged with air traffic control systems, navigation and communication, certification of airmen and aircraft, and the Federal aid to airport program. I have spent my entire working life essentially in the field of aviation.

Senator MONRONEY. You are an expert on the air traffic control systems and electronics as well, are you not?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir, I am fundamentally a controller. I am also a pilot.

Senator MONRONEY. You are also a pilot?
Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.

Senator MONRONEY. In regard to our air traffic control system, there are always efforts to update and modernize the system. Could you give the committee some idea about what is happening in this field?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir. We are now on the verge, I think, of very great improvements in the air traffic control field after a considerable period of work in the research and development area.

We now have in operation in the Atlanta control tower and in the Indianapolis air traffic control center, as well as our experimental facilities at Atlantic City, a device which portrays directly on the scope the altitude and identification of aircraft if they are appropriately equipped with the so-called beacon; that is, the secondary radar that does transmit altitude and identity. This will help us greatly because for the first time, it will tell the controller precisely which airplane and at which altitude, rather than him having to keep this in his mind as the blips crawl across the scope. We think this will be as great an improvement to air traffic control as the introduction of radar was in the first instance.

Senator MONRONEY. Radar shows up flat on a normal scope, but the transponder gives the altitude constantly, does it not, so the man watching the scope will know whether one plane or another which are apparently on a collision course are separated vertically by 5,000 or 10,000 feet?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir. The controller does not know now, except as the pilot reports and he retains it in his mind, whether these thousands and thousands of targets daily have altitude separation, so they do unnecessary work. They may be, as you say, 5,000 or 10,000 feet apart.

Senator MONRONEY. This is in the tower at Atlanta?
Mr. THOMAS. Yes, sir.